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Rwg Forum Back up Notes

Has anyone here got Stan's vic drive circuit to work? 

I breadboarded it last night, double and triple checked everything and it was not working right....

I had an input signal that was 10V high unipolar pulses with a positive 10V gate just like the diagram shows. I used two 2N3906's, one 2N2222 and a TIP120.

Output across the coil was like a continuous pulse with small dips between pulses???

It all works on the VIC card. Adam made a video of it all working that I seen.
Did you build the voltage amplitude control too?
Did you use an inverted gated input signal to the cell driver as shown?

==================================

 

I don't have the voltage amplitude control circuit but have 2 adjustable power supplies.

I did put an inverted signal to the driver circuit.

I'll play around with it more this weekend. 

Once again....Does anyone know the reason for the 2N3906'S and 2222. I know the Q8 2N3906 drives the Tip120 base but what is the reason for the others?

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Pretty sure those three transistors setup a fixed DC bias that keeps the TIP120 partially turned on at all times.  This in turn keeps the primary slightly energized or should I say, provides leakage current.

Russ and I have been trying to figure out how this leakage current makes it way over to the secondary side, hence all the talk about flux walking.

=====================================

 

That's what I don't quite understand. My simulation of the drive circuit in multisim does not give me a dc bias. I wonder if it's further back in the circuit or my sim is incorrect?

Looking at Ronnie's waveforms it's hard to tell if there is a bias there...Ronnie, on your scope shots where are you measuring the yellow trace? Is it across the primary coil? 

If Stan wanted a dc bias he could have just added a resistor from a positive voltage source to the base of the tip120. 
This is where I get confused because I've never seen anything in Stan's literature about a dc bias?

 

=======================================

Putting this out there because for some silly reason I never noticed it before.

  •  

 

 

Figure 4 (high-side) of the patent sure shows the gain and offset components going to the primary coil.  Figure 5 (low-side) also connects to the primary coil on the opposite side.  So I think you need both circuits, best I can tell.  Doesn't look to me like either side of the primary coil actually connects to ground or positive power.  The high-side can be hard switched to the plus battery, but I don't think you want it that way for testing--there would be no way to start at a low voltage and work up if you did.

With two circuits like this on each side of the primary, it makes sense why there is a 10 volt reference (VEE).  You only need less than two volts of DC bias at the most.  Ronnie said about 1.23 volts is plenty.

 

Brad, can you re post 
" Looking at Ronnie's waveform it's hard to tell if there is a bias there...Ronnie, on your scope shots where are you measuring the yellow trace? Is it across the primary coil? "

thanks, 

also the Dc bias may not show up till after some cycles , so the sim need to be bale to "flux walk"  

else you will see what you described in your last post i think. 

"Output across the coil was like a continuous pulse with small dips between pulses???"

let me try to test mine when i get time this weekend., are you checking the Sig with a coil connected? 

~Russ 

=====================================================

Brad, I may have made a mistake on the VEE voltage.
Try -5 or -10 volts for the VEE I'm thinking it was -5 volts.
Let me know if either works out so i can go back and change my post that I made.

=======================================================

 

VEE is normally referenced to the emitter of an NPN transistor (VSS--source for N-type MOSFET), so yeah, it should be near ground level.  And since it is connected to the emitter of a PNP transistor, it must be higher voltage than the collector side which is at zero volts.  I'm guessing more likely +5 volts--can't be below zero.  Okay, I don't "think" it is below zero.

ll this talk is good though:  I think I see now how Stan possibly avoided or controlled flux walking.  He has essentially a bipolar configuration by driving the primary from both sides.  Being able to shift the voltage around is how you balance the volt-seconds.

IEEE Standard Letter Symbols for Quantities Used in Electrical Science and Electrical Engineering  See page 26.

 

I'll get with Adam or Dom, they have the VIC card up and running. I'll get one of them on skype and see what the VEE voltage is for sure. Dom sent me a VIC card but I haven't got around to hooking it up yet.

 

======================================

h well crap... the first load of test stuff is going home to the tiny shop... one VIc, one cell, ( already there) , Cell driver circuit, and VIC card we made years back, currently gonna test with Iron cores, no need to snap the only ferite one i have... this will tell some stories, 

O scope PS and Sig gen is there awaiting me already...

Brad, keep me posted on your driver, ill fallow your foot steps and see if we can get the same results, 
FIY... everyone else should also start there, its the 1 thing that EVERYONE can replicate... 

~Russ

Sounds good.

Ronnie, you guys made up some boards right?   You still have any for sale?   Otherwise I'll have to use my version that I haven't made yet.

When someone has the exact values for all the VDD, VCC, VEE, etc, please post that info.  I'll start working on a PSU card/board using linear regulators, unless one already exists.  It should only have +battery and ground inputs.

 

 

======================================

 

 

I may just design up a single all-in-one board that has everything necessary for bench testing.  Just analog, no laser accelerator card or anything like that.

If I do this, anyone else want such a thing so I know in advance how many to order?

 

===========================================

 

att. I would advise to use the vic card we made. It's basically all hand tunable.

Also Tony woodside's schematics.

It Be Nice if Ronnie had all of his work on hand so he could post all of the schematics. Maybe Neil has some that he's willing to share. I know it's a replica of Stan's work but it'd be nice to have all pcbs and information. A lot of hard work went into that along with all the stuff we've done in the past of which is posted on this forum

Don't re invent the weel Matt ;) trying to save you some time.  

~Russ

Yeah, yeah.  I've lost more than a couple of years I'll never get back on this already.

VCC = 12 volts
VEE = 10 volts (adjustable via LM317)
VDD = 5 volts

Figure 10 is wrong.  Hook things up according figure 1 block diagram.

So it looks to me like we need:
  The final portion of figure 3 from P1 on out to connector J, attached to figure 4.
  All of figure 4 connected to the primary high-side.
  All of figure 5 connected to the primary low-side.
  The input of figure 5 at connector G can be an inverted signal from your signal generator or
    It can come from figure 12, but will have no gating. 

So to me, I think we need a single board test solution that incorporates figures 4, 5, 6 & 12, plus the necessary voltage regulators.  From what Ronnie says about the gating, I don't think it's necessary at this point, so we can easily drop figure 6 and just add an inhibit button to manually gate if needed.  Pots should have a low resistance series trimmer to go with them for fine adjustment.  If this can be done properly, all those decade counters on figure 12 can be removed, though it would be good to have one D flip-flop just to make sure we have a solid 50% duty cycle.

 

Well. It sounds like we will all be having a "new" single bord test solution. 

Also. Make sure your able to have  50% AND adjustible Pulse with 

 

=======================================

 

m not sure what way you guys all want to go.

There are some things in these circuits that leave me saying "hmmm...." to myself.  They may be important; they may be inconsequential.  I'm just afraid if we don't do it as close to exactly the way Stan did, we'll all be asking Ronnie why it doesn't work.  I can see why Ronnie chose to build the whole thing out now.  Some of this is just not obvious to the naked eye.

======================================

 

These are our VIC boards they work as far as we can tell.  However we don't need it at the moment what we do need is a frequency and gate board and to match the impeadance etc...  
we can build VIC boards till the cows come home.. The Vic board also requires the othe boards to work correctly accell board, regulated power supply, pressure sense.... not to mention feed back which we have to find a way to fool it into locking into resonance.  
so all I can say is without a matched and tuned setup vic is useless..  
sorry can't seem to put pic up ATM???

 

=========================================

 

ok i set the driver circuit in a sim, the only way i can get any thing to work is replace the 470 ohm resistor with a 47k ohm.   This is on the Q7 base, going to 0V 

when its 470 ohm, i cant get it to do nothing, i guess that's because there is not enough current flow.  

brad, try switching out that resistor. 

also what value are you using for the N/A resistor on the TIP 120? 

try a 47K as well. something like 470 is to low . I'm a paragraph. Click here to add your own text and edit me. I’m a great place for you to tell a story and let your users know a little more about you.

 

oh and let us not forget that that tip 120 is a Darlington pair, it also has a diode in it! 

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/TIP120-890130.pdf

~Russ

oh and make sure you drive that with a 12V sig at G if you use 5V it wont turn off all the way. and for the sim at 5V it don't trigger right...

guess theirs more to tweak. 

oh you know what the Vcc at 5V works fine with a 5V input! 

10V on Vee

 ~Russ

let it process, also its was all messed up scan through it about 1/2 way... some where in there you should see the sim and where i change the values and voltages, you can see it stop working, 

and it seems that the tip 120 resister " N/A" did work at 470, but the other did not! 

~Russ

 

This should be right compared to Don's sketches and what is actually on Stan's Board.

I only see one 47k (yellow,violet,orange) and three 470 (yellow,violet,brown) ohm.

The simulator doesn't seem to do what I'm expecting the circuit to do. Undefined results.

Go back and look at Dom's board, those resistors sure don't look like 47K to me.

I corrected all my drawings that has been posted to reflect what is actually on Stan's Vic card and Don's Sketches from the Estate Files.

 

@Matt
maybe it makes more sense to make a separate board for the transistor stage - why?
if the transistor stage is able to deliver a bias for magnetic flux it can be driven by any pulse generator input / also pulse generators that are already in operation.

an alternative could be to make a pcb layout with separate transistorstage and pulse generator so that pcb can be cut to use transistor stage stand alone.

best way to me seems to be to make a 2 parts pcb connecting them with pcb connectors

Yes.  Russ and I pretty much agree on a very simple driver board.  My feeling is that it should have an optically coupled signal input and a battery connection.  The output would be the two leads to each side of the VIC primary.  All the transistors and regulators would be on the board.  Just a simple module that doesn't actually produce any pulses, just passes them through Stan's circuits as described.

With such a board, you can feed it any sort of signal you like and use this board to control the power/amplitude going to the VIC.

May take me a few days to get something sketched out and several more days to arrange a decent board layout.  If you all like what you see posted here, I'll send the files off to be manufactured.  You can PM me your drop address and I'll ship them to you when they're done. 

 

And by heck somebody better make lots of Hydroxy gas using them, because I know when I croak, my wife will throw all the stuff I've made over the years into the dumpster.

 

Hey Matt, how would you like to have something like this and you was proud of it like a new born child.

I have to chop out the 470ohm resistors and replace them with 47k...

 

Ok did you change those resistors and test again? 

~Russ

I always had them at 470 ohms. At 47k the base current is too low.

Can't get it to work either way

============================

I might have got the driver circuit working correctly in multisim?

The resistor that comes from +10V to the base of Q6 will not allow the circuit to work unless it is over 1k but if it's that high disconnecting it altogether is no different. If not the Q6 transistor gets more current from the resistor off the +10V than it does from the incoming signal and then a continuous DC voltage passes through Q6.

The 470 and 1k resistors I kept the same but then changed the base resistor at the TIP120 to 4.7k.

I am getting the classic gated waveform now but no DC bias?

The only way I can get a DC bias is by adding a resistor from the primary coil +V to the base of the TIP120.

The inductor and resistor plays

a big role in getting it to work. Try Stan's value of inductance of the primary and put the 220 ohm resistor in the circuit also.

 

So I did a sim and swapped two resistors (47K and 470).  When I run it with scope connected to the base of the Darlington (which I can't simulate very well), I get some crazy negative spikes.

Thoughts?

 

 

And when I connect to the output of the final drive transistor, I clearly have a DC bias offset, with a hard zero spike on the trailing edge of each pulse.

That's not normal guys and probably why Stan did it the way he did.

We need to get this on a bread board and see the same thing on a live scope.

Oh good. You got some where Matt. 

At least some one did. I see you had to stop values tho. That's ok. I'll re configure the one I made and test it.

====================================

If you move the scope along from transistor to transistor, you can see how that signal is built.  Pretty neat if I do say so.  Seems to stay pretty consistent in the frequency ranges mentioned in the patent.  A poor rise/fall time on the input kind of makes the little tail disappear as I would expect.

The zipped file for MultiSIM BLUE is attached if anyone wants to play with it.


I didn't try playing with resistor values too much--it looks mostly like the transistors themselves propagate and amplify that effect.  I can maybe try adding the high-side circuit too and see what everything looks like running as one unit.  Getting a little tired for today though--may half to sleep on it.

 

Figure-5.zip -

And when I connect to the output of the final drive transistor, I clearly have a DC bias offset, with a hard zero spike on the trailing edge of each pulse.

That's not normal guys and probably why Stan did it the way he did.

We need to get this on a bread board and see the same thing on a live scope.

Matt
It is not the DC bias.
It is voltage accross the diode and junction collector-emiter of the TIP120 in series when TIP120 is turn-on.
andy

 

===============================

You have a good eye andy.    ;)

So lets take a look at the signal directly across the light bulb (load).


You have stated "switch R2 and R7"

Are the values on the resistors in that sim schematic corect? Are those "switched" 

Also what voltages is your Sig gen set at? And dc offest? 

I can't even get the first stage to go unless I drop the voltage of the first leg to 5v and the Sig gen past 7v 

I'm wondering too if my Sig gen has the current needed to flip it on. I'm guessing yes.  Pluss that's what the second rest or is for. Current flow. 

Ok well i officially started testing. I even cleaned my bench up really nice

~Russ 

Ps. Ignore that 22k I could not ring a 1k around. Will get one in the morning. All my stuff is at work.

Matt. Why are your load scope probes not connected to ground. Mesuring it the way you did would show a DC bias. From my thinking. ~Russ

 

Quote from ~Russ on December 13th, 2016, 12:08 AM

Are the values on the resistors in that sim schematic corect? Are those "switched"

How the heck should I know.  It seems to work and is pretty close to what Ronnie posted.

 

Quote from ~Russ on December 13th, 2016, 12:08 AM

Also what voltages is your Sig gen set at? And dc offest?

TTL.

 

Quote from ~Russ on December 13th, 2016, 12:08 AM

I can't even get the first stage to go unless I drop the voltage of the first leg to 5v and the Sig gen past 7v

Well it did work, but now that I have added the rest, it no longer runs properly and looks to me like the simulator can't figure out what to do with the components in orange (apparently no spice model).


Guess I'll just have to prototype the goofy thing.

Matt. Why are your load scope probes not connected to ground. Mesuring it the way you did would show a DC bias. From my thinking. ~Russ

Andy is correct.  They must be connected where the actual primary coil would be.  And best I can tell, there is no DC bias there.  However, I'm not using a TIP120 component, because this silly simulator doesn't have one.  With an hfe over 1000, there might actually be some DC bias with the real thing.

 

 

Quote from Matt Watts on December 13th, 2016, 03:44 AM

How the heck should I know.  It seems to work and is pretty close to what Ronnie posted.

im sorry i must be confused, i was asking about the values on that photo of the sim are those what the sim is? or is there a " layer" where you tell the value? 

TTL, 5V ok, 

ill mess with it more tonight / tomorrow,  

its all good, its to funny that all us smart people are having such a hard time with this simple circuit.  

WE WILL GET THERE lets keep going, 

one part at a time, 

~Russ 

 

Quote from ~Russ on December 13th, 2016, 09:33 AM

TTL, 5V ok,

The "G" signal coming from the PLL is probably a 12 volt signal, since PLL is a 4016 connected to VCC (12 volt).

 

=======================

All 4000 CMOS series chips can handle more than 5+ volts. TTL chips are only 5 volt.

 

Quote from Matt Watts on December 13th, 2016, 06:16 PM

The "G" signal coming from the PLL is probably a 12 volt signal, since PLL is a 4016 connected to VCC (12 volt).

That's why I asked what your Sig gen in your SIM was. Real life tells me it was more than 7 at least!!!

 

 

Hmmm...

Check this out.  Ten volt peak-to-peak output.

 

=======================================

Well It works. As per Matt's #5 sim values. 

However. 
It only works With a 10vpk-pk signal. Will work from 7v to 12+v.   Below 7 and it's toast. 


 5v on the first stage. It has a range between 2.5-6v. For the first stage. Any thing out side that range and it's tost. 

For the third stage it works in most of the range 2-12+v it seems not to care to much. 

Changeing any of the voltages dose not have to much effect on the Sig. Its quite nice through it. Also the first stage inverts the Sig. So an inverted input is directed on the first stage back to non inverted. 


With a light as a load (aka resystor)  I see a DC bius. Even when mesured across the tip 120. Or the load. 

However With a coil. There is no dc bias.  But my vic circuit is not complete correctly and I was using an iron core. 

So theorticaly if it's impedance matched and the primary is seen purly as a resistance it could dc bias the primary? But only when everything is matched??? 

Sounds like we need to match a 1:1 transformer and see if it dc bias'  

That's would be a nice easy way to test the driver and an impedance matched load with out ever having a vic connected. 

We need to think more like this if we can. Test each part and understand it. Then we can get to the more complex multi body problem of the "VIC" as a whole  

Zzz zzz...

~Russ 

Good deal Russ.  I'll start a PCB design based on what we know now.

  •  

==========================================================

THE D.C. Bias you want at the primary comes when the diode short the primary such that the on time it will charge up but during of time it won't make in time discharging since the diode shorting the primary during off time makes a different time constant

=====================================================

First pass schematic including regulators and an input opto-isolator.  The opto-isolator is set to invert the signal and drives the first transistor with 10 volts which is what I think we decided is needed.  The pot (R11) is the voltage (power) control that allows you to tune the VIC starting at low voltage and adjust as you get closer to locking into resonance.  Having not tested the voltage control part yet, it may prove to be far too sensitive, so I'm guessing the 10k resistor on the Op-amp may need to be a trimmer to control the gain.  It's also possible we need both Op-amps in Figure 4 to achieve resonance, again just not sure.

Please check for obvious errors before I start designing the PCB.

 

Board will likely look something like the attachment image, but instead of header pins, I'll probably use PCB screw-down terminals such as:

The board needs a lot of work, so check out the schematic first if you would please.

Matt: nope. 1/2 STOP
... nice work by the way, 
will explain when i can get back here ( long day) 


   sebosfato: yeah I'm with you on that! more testing needed!

 

Let me know if you guys get it working. 

I've been working on my own drive circuit. I get good square waves across the primary coil but I still can't find resonance. 

 

Well, Russ tested with actual hardware and I spent about as much time with the simulator.  With a few minor adjustments, both of us got the driver to work.  Now having said that, I'm still not real sure what Stan's driver circuit actually accomplishes.  I see a tiny spike on the leading edge when the signal turns on, but I can't say whether this is important or not.

Guess we push forward...

 

And this setup gives the weirdest response I've seen so far.  Using all 5 volt drives.  Same resistor values.  Unfortunately I can't simulate a TIP120, so I'm using a TIP47 instead--your mileage may very.  Scope offsets for each channel is +/- 1 div from centerline.  And yes, that B channel is really set to 200 volts/div.  Weird aay...?

 

out come was that we want a driver circuit as identical as stans with out all the bells and whistles manual mode only!, so we diceted to trace the cards once again and make sure that fig 5 its right,

and yeah its not, 

so this is the current known configuration of the VIC card driver circuit... 

the extra components might only be for the PLL circuit, OR it could be apart of the feed back loop that the driver needs! we dont know but we will test it and sim it...

EVERYONE PLEASE DO THE SAME look at the photos from the estate and TELL ME WHERE I'M WRONG so we can fix it! 
if we all dont agree we need to see why, and fix it...

im still not sure about the VCC voltage just yet, i need more time but its tied to the Base Voltage that the card is... im hoping its 5V. but cant seem to trace it back... it could be 10 or 12v but that dose not work in the sim of on the bench, only 5 so im guessing its 5. some one else can check that... until i get time...

give it a sim mat and see if anything funky is going on with that... 
~Russ 

So, Russ and I have taken a challenge to determine what the outlined components are here in this image, why they are there and to come up with an accurate Figure 5 schematic with those components in-place.  If anyone else would like to participate, by all means, jump-in and lend a hand.

im still not sure about the VCC voltage just yet, i need more time but its tied to the Base Voltage that the card is... im hoping its 5V. but cant seem to trace it back... it could be 10 or 12v but that dose not work in the sim or on the bench, only 5 so im guessing its 5. some one else can check that... until i get time...

I clearly see an LM340T5 (7805) on the VIC housing.  The likelihood we are dealing with 5 volts instead of something else is pretty good, but we need to carefully trace it if possible.

 

Why don't you guy's just use Don's sketches? It clearly shows the VCC +voltage going to the 47K resistor and all the way up to the + power rail that goes to most of the IC chips that's on the board.

Why don't you guy's just use Don's sketches?

Well, they are better than the patent schematic for sure, but I'm not entirely convinced they tell the whole story.

Quote from gpssonar on December 15th, 2016, 06:41 PM

It clearly shows the +voltage going to the 47K resistor and all the way up to the + power rail that goes to all the IC chips that's on the board.

Which power rail?  12 volt or 5 volt?

So what I need is an accurate schematic to sim and build boards from.  The patent schematic is almost useless.

Nowhere have I seen before a 22K resistor acting as a feedback loop with a small disc capacitor connected to the loop pulled to ground making it an RC filter network.

Then there is the issue of the rectifiers.  The only rectifier in the photographs is a single 5 volt jobbie, so I'm guessing all of the driver circuit and even the PLL runs on 5 volts, not 12 or 10 or anything else.

My hunch is this driver circuit is a little more special than the average bear would think, so I want to get it right and have that piece of the puzzle out of the way, so we can focus on the VIC itself.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if HMS had a proper driver, his VIC would take off and run just as it is; maybe others too.  Probably not mine, but that's another story.  I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

A piece at a time Ronnie.  The closer we get to having the correct setup, the closer we'll be to actually understanding this beast.

 

So Russ, I'm not fully convinced that jumper wire connected to the 22k resistor actually goes to pin 3 of the PLL (signal G).  Take another look and let me know what you think.  Looks like it may actually go to the next one up on the 5 hole block, which I is VCO Out (pin 4) instead of Comparator In (pin 3)

If this is true, then Don's sketch is not quite accurate.  And it means the feedback is on the other side of the divider network.  However, the divider network is not used at all.  Go figure that one out...

The 5 hole block, left (PCB connector) to right (front panel):

1st - PLL pin 3 input,
2nd - PLL pin 4 output,
3rd - 4017 10*10*10 divided PLL pin 4,
4th - 4017 10*10 divided PLL pin 4,
5th - 4017 10 divided PLL pin 4.

The bodge RC filter is connected:

Primary coil out lead -> 22k -> PLL pin 3 -> .33uf -> GND

This RC filter appears to be connected to PLL pin 3. PLL pin 3 is also connected to a 4001 pin 8 (@ corner of the card).

Quote from Matt Watts on December 15th, 2016, 07:46 PM

And it means the feedback is on the other side of the divider network.  However, the divider network is not used at all.  Go figure that one out...

The last output of the divider network goes to a green LED on the front panel. Output of 4001 pin 11 is used for this LED.​

 

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

« Reply #90, 2 months ago »

I will need to update my VIC schematic on my bench to reflect this.

EDIT: Not Vcc, but the primary coil out lead (to ground side), is connected to this RC filter, to leading end of the 22k.

 

Thanks for the compliments Matt, I think your right. I feel like I'm right there but my drive circuit needs more work. 

I want to replicate Stan's but feel that I can get something working with less hassle  based on Ronnie's explanation....One thing I would like to see is a scope shot of the signal across Ronnie's primary coil?

 

ok, well to my tracing everything is jumped out to 5V  so i can see where there was place for voltages for both stages, however there jumper'd out, and its all tied back to the 5V regulator that's on board! 

so my guess is that its all 5V 

ill need to test if a 5V Pk-Pk works, i cant remember.

~Russ new schematic

Thanks for the compliments Matt, I think your right. I feel like I'm right there but my drive circuit needs more work.

We'll get you there if we can.  I just ordered components a few minutes ago and should have something in a week or so to confirm what we think things should look like.  I'm pretty curious to see for myself just how pure the signal into the VIC actually is.  From what I can make out, it sure looks like the PLL could be pushing the phasing around--meaning a steady square wave may not cut it.

Quote from HMS-776 on December 15th, 2016, 10:09 PM

I want to replicate Stan's but feel that I can get something working with less hassle  based on Ronnie's explanation....One thing I would like to see is a scope shot of the signal across Ronnie's primary coil?

Yes, that could be helpful.  Don't know if Ronnie scooped up that Tek scope or not someone was offering a while back.  If he did, maybe he could pop a probe on his running unit and snap a pic for us.    :whistle:

Be a good way to see what Coulombs Law looks like. 

 

So, Russ and I have taken a challenge to determine what the outlined components are here in this image, why they are there and to come up with an accurate Figure 5 schematic with those components in-place.  If anyone else would like to participate, by all means, jump-in and lend a hand.

This RC filter is not in the official Figure 5 WO92/07861 patent. It is a bodge. As for the cap, I have yet to look at.

Attached is what the VIC card should reflect now.

C12 could be some other nF value.

ok, well to my tracing everything is jumped out to 5V  so i can see where there was place for voltages for both stages, however there jumper'd out, and its all tied back to the 5V regulator that's on board! 

so my guess is that its all 5V

Yes I think so.  It's the only regulator in there.

Quote from ~Russ on December 15th, 2016, 11:10 PM

ill need to test if a 5V Pk-Pk works, i cant remember.

It's working in my sim, but the signal at the base of the TIP120 is even more crazy.

This RC filter is not in the official Figure 5 WO92/07861 patent. It is a bodge. As for the cap, I have yet to look at.

Yes, we will have to figure out what the cutoff for the RC filter is since it tells the PLL which way to adjust the phase.

I'm not real sure about this particular PLL, but I think with no input to the comparator it runs at the center frequency plus the offset.

 

Yes I think so.  It's the only regulator in there.

It's working in my sim, but the signal at the base of the TIP120 is even more crazy.

ok good, how about that 22k and cap? add that to the sim? anything change? 

also post the sim again I'm installing it... 

~Russ

 

also post the sim again I'm installing it...

Didn't add those two other components since I don't think we'll see anything with a fix signal coming in.  Might be something we need to try on a bread board and see if we notice anything funky on the scope.

Notice that down spike is reaching almost 700 volts peak to peak.  Crazy stuff.  I almost hope it's just the simulator being nuts.

 

figure 5a to run in the software here

I wouldn't trust a simulator with a resonant tank circuit. There's actual physics going on. :P

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There's another bodge. Regarding that 100uF cap and the transistor beside it. I have not traced.

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    There's another bodge. Regarding that 100uF cap and the transistor beside it. I have not traced.

    Speaking of bodges, can you tell where that little red jumper off of the 22k resistor goes?   It seems to go under the 100uF cap, but then I can't tell where it goes next.  I'm guessing to a switch, then over to the BNC test port, but I'm not sure.

Per Don, that red wire goes to the Analog Frequency switch, then its center pole goes right to the test jack. (red wire goes to the trailing primary coil lead)

The switch is wired just for the test jack.

The unoccupied TS2 block was originally for the test jack, which is PLL pin 14 and ground. Should give a hint into what was being tested. In this case, feedback.

The green oscillation LED actually comes from the NORed gate output of the 4001 chip @ pin 11, not from the 4017 dividers. Both NOR gate input posts are tied to the gated frequency sub-circuit. This LED isn't connected to the VIC components, but to the gated frequency pin outside the card.

Cell driver traced.

The 22k in the cell driver should be 1k ohm. During a previous tracing, the 22k got mixed up with the RC bodge.

The C (collector) and E (emitter) are switched up on the silkscreen for the 2 PNP transistors and the other bodge near the 100uF cap on Don's sketch, but wired as they should.

100uF cap is a bypass cap over the 5V rail.

This cell driver is becoming to look like a protection circuit. As I look.

How is an opto-isolator any different.

Correct me if Im wrong...It's not like me to be wrong

GPS has the (SM) VIC (non twin core) on the bench in the back room and is not using the (SM) driver?
From what I have read over the last 2 years...
Most any driver should work for bench testing?

Dan,

It's not that you're wrong. The fact is nobody I know except for Ronnie can say they really got this circuit working properly.

And the only reason I think Ronnie got it working with any other simple driver is because he understands how it's supposed to function.

However if the driver circuit helps set up the proper signals so that the VIC can be tuned easy then our best bet is to understand what the signal is supposed to be and how the driver circuit performs that function. If it's nothing more than on time and off time tuning that's fantastic. But it's hard to say at the moment if that's the only thing. So for us at the moment it feels better to have one piece of the mystery solved. The driver circuit might solve some variable. It's kind of like having a million dollars sitting in front of you and instead of using it to buy a car going to the junkyard and trying to build one from scratch. We know someone else has done it better than we can so why waste the time to build it again. 

Seems there was a lot of silly and important things added to this verry off driver circuit. Aka. If it worked for stan might as well use it!! 

Just my 2 cents. 
~Russ

 

Yes, looking at one device that solves dozens of little problems is a daunting task to comprehend and repeat for yourself.  It shouldn't be that difficult, but it is what it is and we'll have to get our heads wrapped around it one way or another.

Hopefully when Ronnie gets some of his matters settled, he can give us a booster shot.

well lets get back to "checking my understanding" 

Ronnie, This is directed to you, got some more Q and A , if you see ANYTHING you disagree with please state so. 
If some of this is a repeat, just answer it any way. please answer yes/no for each number. or reword it to make scene to you.  


1. The chokes are indeed amp restriction devices, using the magnetic flux, However Because the Capacitor is "variable" ( due to the gas bubbles being formed) the "bandwidth cut off" of the resonant frequency is out side the parameters needed to achieve resonance between L1,L2 and the "cap" .
But ONLY when in the "dead short" condition is there. 

2. The change in capacitance/resistance will allow the resonant action to take place. its important to note that the chokes do not enter resonance until enough gas is generated to change the capacitance / bandwidth cut off to do so, this is automatic and by design.
   (this must be part of your design. parameters)
   
3. This is why we need to tune the system with dry cell's, This is how we check the resonance of the system. 

4. Resonance only happens when we reach that sweet spot after we start making gas ( after the start the polarization process with our amp leakage)  and if the bandwidth cut off allows to go in to resonance. 

5. Then things change when in resonance mode( The phase angle changes between current and voltage when things change in to resonance mode.) 


6.  This is a Question: we can change the phase angle changes between current and voltage by having an imbalance of turns between L1 and L2???

more after this, 

~Russ 

PS, take your time

1:yes
2:yes
3:yes it helps
4:yes
5:yes and I got more to say about this in another post.
6:got more to say about this one as well in another post.

So on the drive circuit

I just realized the obvious. The 47k & 470 resistors are used to pull each transistor base high or low depending on whether its a pnp or npn. This ensures they shut off completely or partially? I need to look at the datasheets.

The 470 on the TIP120 is just a base current limiting resistor which we already know.

 

Yep. When Low, their bases are pulled. Not floating.

 

====================

The TIP120 apparently does its own pull-down.

because it's a darlington transistor couple.

 

==================

 

With internal resistors and a protection diode, having a current gain (HFE) of around 2500.  :)

A very useful device to have in your component box, especially if you know how to make one of these.

 

If we look at the datasheets and calculate the base current on each transistor I think we might see that there is no bias voltage, but that depends on the voltages applied to Vcc & Vee?

 

Speaking of bodges, can you tell where that little red jumper off of the 22k resistor goes?   It seems to go under the 100uF cap, but then I can't tell where it goes next.  I'm guessing to a switch, then over to the BNC test port, but I'm not sure.

After a second look, by the 1k resistors, the silkscreen says 47k in those 2 places. The silkscreen contradicts the resistor.

Is that third strip brown (470) or orange (47k)? The colors can look the same in this image. I'll need to scan through the estate to confirm.

A 47k ohm pull-up and pull-down makes more sense than using a 470 ohm. The path of least resistance is always taken.

 

Yep. The pull-up/down resistors to the last 2 base transistors, Stan used 470 ohm on the cards instead of 47k ohm.

Find out which works best, and why it was replaced.

I spent many hours scanning Don's work and the photos to find a lot of differences that I logged in this thread:

 http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.0

 

Is there any errors in the driver circuit that need to be reviewed or changed?

 

t's good that we have independent peer review of Don's photos. Making revisions will help.

I haven't seen that thread (I wasn't there yet). I modified my schematic at:

Previous page @ highlight:

Bodge RC filter from primary sense trace attached to PLL pin 3  http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41434

This page @ highlight:

22k resistor mix-up w/ RC filter in cell driver circuit    http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41444

ok, currently on my bench,

it appears that i can not get it going with a 5Vpk-pk Sig from the Gen. But Va must be 3V or so, it Can not be the same as the driver source. my sig gen should have enough current to work but maybe it dose not. 
Update, tested this by shorting G to 0v and its fine. so 5V and 5Vpk-pk dose work. just not with my Gen. hummm... 


 guess that's due to the need for a change big enough to flow the current on the first stage...

the 100uf cap dose smooth out the Signal a tinny bit on the first stage. 

the 22K and .33nf do feed all the way back in to that base of Q7, there is a small peak that happens with it in place, prob not enugh to worry about, but i think its not for that, its for the PLL, if its connected there is a nice slow curve, showing that there is an RC time constant there. maybe checking for when the primary is fully on? 



there is a delay when the Sig turns off and the Tip120 turns off, they all turn on at the same time. but they do not turn off at the same time. 


ok updated Driver circuit V 1.2 with Values and Numbers for Input points and component's

please try to stick to this component numbering system as we need to stay on the same page when talking about this thing... 

~Russ 

PS, Uploading Video on this testing. post it when its up.  also note that in the video my sig gen dose not turn off the circuit when at 0V so i had to drop the voltage of the Va and Vb to 3V. 

V1.2

  •  

I spent many hours scanning Don's work and the photos to find a lot of differences that I logged in this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.0.  Is there any errors in the driver circuit that need to be reviewed or changed?

ah i was looking for those lol 

yeah its not right, those patent drawings have things missing!!!! ~Russ

 

What's missing, other than the bodges? Not all schematics are created equal. :P

Is the Rigol Sig Gen grounded well to the circuit, Russ? Maybe a pull-down resistor at its output would help, or to the base of Q6?

The Rigol Sig Gen could have an output impedance. Check in your settings if it's there and set. see below

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Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

« Reply #127, 2 months ago »Last edited 2 months ago

C2 cap should be grounded. It's only for the PLL @ input pin 3. It's not connected to the base of Q7.

Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2016, 10:40 PM

Update, tested this by shorting G to 0v and its fine. so 5V and 5Vpk-pk dose work. just not with my Gen. hummm...

Well, since the base of Q6 is already pulled-up @ power up, the Sig Gen should short G to ground.

This is a PNP, and the behavior is opposite to an NPN.

When Low, Q6 is On.

For an NPN as an example, when Low, Q6 would be Off.

Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2016, 10:40 PM

please try to stick to this component numbering system as we need to stay on the same page when talking about this thing...

We can focus on your schematic now. Just let us know. ;P

C2 cap should be grounded. It's only for the PLL @ input pin 3. It's not connected to the base of Q7.Well, since the base of Q6 is already

when i looked the cap was indeed connected to the base of Q7. 

have a look again. if I'm wrong... ok, but i thought it was to the base of Q7, hummm. the more eyes checking the better :) 

~Russ

Thanks to the trace I did in 2011. It's helping a lot. :P

http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41255

 

vic schema 

 

Yeah, I agree with Haxar.  Looks to me like it connects to the ground side of the 470 ohm resistor, which makes for a tidy little filter network going back to the PLL feedback comparator.

When I get my parts, I'll bread board from the PLL forward and see if these two components actually make the PLL find and lock on anything as I would expect them to do.

ve accumulated an understanding behind Stan's technology, and I haven't seen much relating to my understanding on the forum, and various forums before. Hopefully, this journal can clear up some controversy and confusion around the technology, unless it were stated many times before with proof or going by Stan's text.

All understanding is based off the documentation freely made available, such as the patents and memo technical briefs, not to be construed as interpretation with opinions/beliefs of the text. This is my technical logical understanding of the text, journalled here.

My first entry regarding the Voltage Intensifier Circuit:

The 4046 Phase Lock Loop IC and the feedback coil on the VIC are critical components, that they work together in locating a "resonant" frequency (synchronizing the core's flux field to the input pulse) and achieve an electrostatic effect (i.e. Voltage Performing Work, voltage to infinity). I'll soon plan an attempt to look for a resonant condition, manually, by probing the primary coil and feedback coil on the scope. These two coils would have to be in phase, which is what the 4046 does, automatically.

"Resonance" is indirectly defined by Stan's patent, in the International patent WO92/07861, which has all of the VIC circuitry:

  • Resonance: "The magnetic flux field of the pulsing core is in synchronization (in phase) with the pulse input to the primary coil.

  • Resonance: "A Phase Lock Loop, maintains (or locks) input pulse frequency [to] a predetermined resonant condition, sensed [through] the pick-up coil on the pulsing core." These two coils would be in phase.

  • Pulse off and flux field collapse, generating another pulse as BEMF: "The transformer core is a pulse frequency doubler."

  • 2kV predetermined maximum for a secondary coil.

As defined in the International patent.The text is very explicit, but not in order for this era, to understand. Stan names concepts already defined and known universally. The text comes from an era before the Internet.

If there's an assumption floating around, you might as well consult the text, because the answer is right there all along.

 

Good thoughts haxar.
Dont forget to mention about the op-amp ECG918 working as inverting comparator and biased by a 5v regulator.
Signal is fed to the PLL input only at a certain threshold.

As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:



(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.

 

ome notes:

I wish we knew for sure about the value for C12.  A 0.33uF seems a bit large for the value when looking at the little green disc capacitor on the board and knowing the time frame when that thing had to have been manufactured.  I almost wonder if it isn't suppose to be a 330pF cap--sure seems more reasonable.

I would also like to see the figure 4 components in there for manual voltage adjustment instead of the hard 12 volt rail.

The 10 volt supply to Q5 & Q7 must be in actuality 5 volts since there are no 10 volt regulators shown in the estate photos.

My last note is all the chips on there for illuminating indicator LEDs--really don't think they are necessary.  Nice to have, but not necessary.

 

Quote from Matt Watts on December 19th, 2016, 01:18 AM

I wish we knew for sure about the value for C12.  A 0.33uF seems a bit large for the value when looking at the little green disc capacitor on the board and knowing the time frame when that thing had to have been manufactured.  I almost wonder if it isn't suppose to be a 330pF cap--sure seems more reasonable.

Yep. I found a .35nF value on Don's sketch. Not tested.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 19th, 2016, 01:18 AM

I would also like to see the figure 4 components in there for manual voltage adjustment instead of the hard 12 volt rail.

I use a regulated 80 watt power supply there. That is omitted. The top of R47 might well be Figure 4.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 19th, 2016, 01:18 AM

The 10 volt supply to Q5 & Q7 must be in actuality 5 volts since there are no 10 volt regulators shown in the estate photos.

This is noted; 10 volt parts all use 5 volts. I may just use 5 volts for everything. A 10 volt supply plate is shown on the GMS unit, but not connected to the VIC.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 19th, 2016, 01:18 AM

My last note is all the chips on there for illuminating indicator LEDs--really don't think they are necessary.  Nice to have, but not necessary.

Optional.

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 ~Russ

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Re: Stan Meyer Principles - haxar's research journal

« Reply #7, 2 months ago »

330pF= .33nF 

not .33uF

im using .33nf. 

http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2785.0;attach=14626;image

~Russ

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Re: Stan Meyer Principles - haxar's research journal

« Reply #8, 2 months ago »

you fix your C12 tis .33nF

What's missing, other than the bodges? Not all schematics are created equal. :P

Is the Rigol Sig Gen grounded well to the circuit, Russ? Maybe a pull-down resistor at its output would help, or to the base of Q6?

The Rigol Sig Gen could have an output impedance. Check in your settings if it's there and set. see below

I had found a duplicate input circuit to the J signal input on the analog voltage circuit. http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2160.msg30523#msg30523

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

« Reply #135, 2 months ago »

N8, I'm pretty sure, at least in manual voltage control mode, we don't need to worry too much about this.  I could be mistaken depending upon where the input might come from.  With the 1uF filter cap, I doubt very much the voltage control circuit could respond within a single cycle.

For those sketching up schematics, I see that we need two complete versions:
  One that shows the entire system as found in the estate photos and
  A second version that has the manual mode test board for driving a VIC during its development.

Both of these schematics should be peer reviewed and anchored in stone for future reference.  I fully intend on drawing the later one along with boards for people to populate and start testing with.  What I want to do just prior to this is to try some tests with the PLL to rule out any possibility of the PLL being mandatory for proper operation.  Right now with that feedback via the 22k resistor, I think the PLL deserves a sincere look before making a pure driver-only board.  So I need to bread board this and run it through some paces.

Yeah Matt. I'm on the same page. However for this time we need to stick to the basics. We need to pulse a coil. 

All other work should be done in a new thred. Or we can just ask for Ronnie to post all his hard work. This away we can figure on moving forward. And less time repeting  our selfs.  

So back to the main topic of this thred. Understanding how Stan Meyer fule cell works.  

So yes I agree that we should check out that feed back on the PLL. I have a feeling that it's just to keep the coil from going to far one way. Aka. Keep the pulses in a range. 

But yes. If you can give me a schematic you plan on testing "basic driver with PLL feed back" then I'll test it with you. I have a feeling its nothing to worry about. 

So after I get this simple driver working. ( and at the moment it is working but need to add the opto isolator so everything works at 5v) 

We can start testing the rest of the system. (VIC) 

Hope your up to help me try to tune this thing Ronnie. Becuse if your not there No hope at the moment. I feel we only have 50% of the uderstanding we need to really make this VIC work.at least to get it tuned. 

If Your up for Skype it will be needed. Same as Matt get us 3 on the same call and we can make this work on my / Matt's bench. Then and only then we can help you teach it. 

Its to important for us to keep going and make no progress. 

~Russ 

So after I get this simple driver working. ( and at the moment it is working but need to add the opto isolator so everything works at 5v)

See attached.  I think this will work fine at 5 volts and it will also invert the input signal the way we need it, so low is coil off.  Just remember to add an output pull-up resistor between 330 and 4000 ohms--smaller is faster, larger is more power savings.

Quote from gpssonar on December 18th, 2016, 04:33 PM

I should have some free time after tomorrow if things goes well in court tomorrow. Just been trying to heal up after the operation last week and keep my mind clear for court tomorrow.

If you catch any flack in court, tell them you really need at least your private laptop back because it has all your important tax information that you'll need to file--unless of course the judge will go with you to your IRS audit and defend you there.    ;)

I may be a little busy tomorrow with work and getting my RV sold, but I'll try to be available if possible.  If not, Russ, please take good notes and have a good plan ready to talk about.

 

 6n137-2631.pdf - 210.98 k

For those sketching up schematics, I see that we need two complete versions:
  One that shows the entire system as found in the estate photos and
  A second version that has the manual mode test board for driving a VIC during its development.

New revised manual adjusting VIC schematic:

http://open-source-energy.org/?msg=41523

N8 would have the other kind.

There may be infinite frequencies that could work to cause water to go into resonance but there's also infinite frequencies that would not work 
The PLL just allow to set up a lc oscillation and keep it pulsed at its characteristic resonant freq without loosing phase so you can have stable freq and its parametrized by the coil inductance that is easy to change

 

New revised manual adjusting VIC schematic. Do peer review.

When you pulse your circuit with a freq that is not locked in phase or meaning not very well tuned it will result in a amplitude modulation because the frequency will be slight different the phases will walk and you get beats effect 

To make the pll work you must understand how to get the proper feedback otherwise all you get is a nice pulsing ckt

The pll used correct will tune very easy and almost won't need the scanning ckt for is useful only when it loses the time ..

I preferred to use inductive feedback meaning a coil in parallel with a small turns coil on the core of resonance interest  ...than the signal to be taken from is from the current direction 

There's lot about it on my project section in the ionization forum 

The feedback coil can oscillate the transformer primary with just a transistor, therefore resonate at a specific frequency.

When you pulse your circuit with a freq that is not locked in phase or meaning not very well tuned it will result in a amplitude modulation because the frequency will be slight different the phases will walk and you get beats effect

Beat frequencies...

That is exactly what I hope to see with my testing.

I suspect the way Stan developed his circuit by using the kickback from the primary as feedback to the PLL while filtering out the main pulse frequency will do exactly as sebosfato is saying.  This concept is nearly identical to what is used in sonar systems.  You ping the transducer then listen to the transducer for the echo.  Once you have the phase alignment correct, the ping and the echo appear to happen at exactly the same time, only the echo is one cycle behind.  This is the perfect application for a PLL.  What you get in effect is the perfect impedance match as John Shive demonstrated in his Similarities of Wave Behavior video.

hi Bill, I'm sure it is, i also build that circuit, but at this time i think we are just trying to understand this and having the option to do it manually. 

as this is kinds off topic after you reply i will move this to a new thread so it can be discussed there and so we dont detract this thread to much, 

Thanks Sebosfato, 

i agree, seams as Matt, so we should try to see what the PLL will do for us in thus mode. ( primary feed back only) 

also dont forget that there is a another coil that also feeds back in to the PLL...  this is the "feed back" coil, so i;m wondering if the combination of the 2 work best. however we got to start it pulsing first. ( thats the main input to the pll this keeps it pulsing)  any way, maybe we should start a new thread for driver circuit Matt. we are doing a nice job cluttering up this thread with other ideas that are not necacry for this thread...


~Russ

"No man invents anything, He builds and extends a little with his friends and on the shoulders of others."
~Dr. John Vincent Atanasoff

"If you believe, Even though you can not see, You Will See." ~Russ Gries

One Day At A Time...

 

Re: Understanding SM Driver Circuit, Building A Test Driver Voltage control Board

« Reply #147, 2 months ago »

I was just trying to help some understand how it work

On resonance the current is 90degrees de-phased from voltage this mean that you need to know the direction the current is flowing to be able to pulse with correct time. When you connect a coil to a signal automatically the voltage and current in the coil get also 90degrees if the resistance is low enough and there is enough xl ... the pll needs a 90 degrees signal and that's why i tell you my case of success where I used like 20 t on the resonating core as the feedback coil and in series with that a coil of something around 10mh. The other side of the coils are connected across the antiparallel diodes... well I recommend anyone willing to try the pll tô not waste time and look my schematic because I changed the ckt a little bit to work,! 

Sorry to run of topic ....

Lucky and have fun on that! 

BTW, the 22k resistor and 330pF capacitor forms a low-pass filter with roll-off at about 22kHz based on my calculations. adding or subtracting from driver signal?

 

 

 

Not sure what you're asking Gunther--amplitude or phase?

I'm assuming you mean phase.  The driver circuit adds five junction delays between the signal the VCO creates and the signal the PLL phase detector sees via the low-pass filter.  Is that important?   I can't say for sure, but it is odd to me we need so many transistors in the driver circuit unless those delays are somehow relevant.  They certainly aren't there for current gain when all that gain is bled back off through base resistors.  My hunch is the junction delays alter the phase angle just the right amount to effectively attack the water molecule.  The bad news is this altered phase angle must exactly correspond with the attached VIC in order to be effective.  And the worse news is we don't know the exact phase angle that is needed for any generic driver/VIC implementation, though I do suspect it all is based around the water molecule arrangement--the angles between the two Hydrogen atoms with the Oxygen atom acting as a fulcrum.

I almost have the feeling we need a means to measure electronically these angles, then develop some sort of scanning routine that will walk through them a degree at a time until we determine the exact requirements.  This may take some pretty elaborate test equipment unless we can find an algorithm suitable to do this automatically.
 

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_2.html                    

 

Passive Low Pass Filter

Basically, an electrical filter is a circuit that can be designed to modify, reshape or reject all unwanted frequencies of an electrical signal and accept or pass only those signals wanted by the circuits designer.

Frequencies passed below 22kHz are well within the full audible spectrum.

If C were higher, the cut-off would be lower.

Not sure what you're asking Gunther--amplitude or phase?

I'm assuming you mean phase.  The driver circuit adds five junction delays between the signal the VCO creates and the signal the PLL phase detector sees via the low-pass filter.  Is that important?   I can't say for sure, but it is odd to me we need so many transistors in the driver circuit unless those delays are somehow relevant.  They certainly aren't there for current gain when all that gain is bled back off through base resistors.  My hunch is the junction delays alter the phase angle just the right amount to effectively attack the water molecule.  The bad news is this altered phase angle must exactly correspond with the attached VIC in order to be effective.  And the worse news is we don't know the exact phase angle that is needed for any generic driver/VIC implementation, though I do suspect it all is based around the water molecule arrangement--the angles between the two Hydrogen atoms with the Oxygen atom acting as a fulcrum.

I almost have the feeling we need a means to measure electronically these angles, then develop some sort of scanning routine that will walk through them a degree at a time until we determine the exact requirements.  This may take some pretty elaborate test equipment unless we can find an algorithm suitable to do this automatically.

===================

100% agree we need to understand how the signals work and what the PLL i looking for, only way to really do that is build it and see what it dose. 

im not so sure looking at the water will help us Matt, 

at least not with our current test equipment.

 

My findings using this driver is that it only worked pulsing below 10khz. If you go higher 50%du is no longer maintained due transistor bias etc. Way to complex! So designing the cell and coils resonance freq. must be below 10khz. Unfortunately my setup uses higher frequency and i switched to mosfet instead.
~webmug

 

A little at a time.  Seems like this week has just flown by.

If I can find room on my desk to setup my signal generator, we should have some confirmation pretty soon whether this circuit is good to go.

I'll check this much out, then add the voltage control and check it again.   I have an alternate voltage control circuit I want to test also--if the two types behave the same, I'll probably go with my version since it's more straight forward and doesn't need the big 2N3055 TO-3 can.

BTW, the TO-220 you see on the right is a LM2940C 5 volt regulator and the 8 pin dip on the left is a HCPL2631 optocoupler.  A HCPL2611 would be better since we don't need dual inputs, but it's what I have at the moment.

Matt
Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?
andy

Andy. Where that posted?  As far as I'm concerned there is no public knolage of that circuit posted. 

If it is please link it here. 

Also we want to make a basic barbones driver and voltage control. 

Somthing simple that works. This is all based on stans VIC card. So is what Ronnie did. 

Its also nice to test and build Somthing like this so we can get out heads around that signal and why stan did what he did. 

Any how just my thoughts. ;) 

~Russ

 

Matt
Why you dont use Ronnie's driver - it is fully tested and working circuit?
andy

The driver circuit is circa 1980/90s. Fortunately, discrete components were used, and not a microcontroller, at the time. It would be a challenge to reverse engineer if it were developed as such. It was kept simple.

R&D could have progressed beyond 1998, on the circuitry, if he didn't get killed.

If a circuit is designed, it's designed to work.

Matt and Ronnie
If the signal from PLL output "G" doing directly to "G" cell driver , then in the gate time TIP120 is turn-on and primary is also turn-on. 
Please consider how the VIC behave in that case --- maybe half core of primary and L2 is saturated or became like electro-magnet in the gate time? How this influence the secondary and L1 and water cap interaction in the gate time?
thank for your attention.
andy

 

In the gate time when primary is turn-on , this cause that the core of primary became like magnet, The current that  flow thru water gap enter to L2 choke and generate magnetic field that is interacting with magnetic field of the core ( primary is turn-on ) - this cause the choke of current flow - restriction  current.
Sorry for my english.
andy

I finished the breadboarded figure 4 & 5 circuit.

Not sure what to make of things here.

When the driver is on, I get a pretty solid rail voltage output, but when the driver is off, it isn't really off.  I get the following waveform that contains a 60 cycle hum, plus a 13kHz oscillation.  It's almost like the driver is intentionally trying to grab any kind of noise and amplify it.  I'm wondering if I should power this with a battery and try to isolate the power going to my scope...

Anyone else able to confirm the same kind of output?

A note I think is worth mentioning is the Figure 4, Voltage Amplitude Control does not regulate the voltage in any specific way.  One might call it a relative power control, but certainly not a voltage control.  The reason I say this is because if you change the battery voltage, the output voltage of Figure 4 also changes.  There is no voltage reference in this circuit.

I actually think if we truly want a voltage regulator for this application, an LM338 as pictured below would be by far preferable.

Matt i built bouth circuits and worked fine..what did you use on the J input on amplitude control?

I omitted Figure 4 in my schematic. I don't understand its true intention and behavior yet, where a voltage regulator or a regulated variable supply makes more sense.

Also note, we need constant voltage and nil constant current flowing to the primary. If constant current over time, we would not hit the target voltage.

Same components reproduce the same results. Do you need new & proper components?

 

=====================

Your circuit is picking up noise, like an antenna.

  • ===============

Matt i built bouth circuits and worked fine..

I never said the circuits didn't work.  Just seems like "Voltage Amplitude Control" should mean just that.  The voltage should stay where I set it regardless of the input battery voltage.

Quote from adys15 on December 26th, 2016, 10:54 PM

what did you use on the J input on amplitude control?

I used a 50k pot with 1k's on each leg connected to the base of the TIP120.  This adjusts the range pretty decent, best I can tell.  I didn't use the op-amps since the TIP120 is already pretty sensitive.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 10:59 PM

I omitted Figure 4 in my schematic. I don't understand its true intention and behavior yet, where a voltage regulator or a regulated variable supply makes more sense.

In an automobile, the voltage can swing all over the place, so it is a little confusing to me why Stan wouldn't use a true linear voltage regulator.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 10:59 PM

Same components reproduce the same results. Do you need new & proper components?

No, I have the correct parts and they behave as I would expect, but not I as would have chosen if it were my design.  Why the difference is something we will have to look into.

Quote from haxar on December 26th, 2016, 11:01 PM

Your circuit is picking up noise, like an antenna.

Those transistors in the drive circuit are quite sensitive--probably for good reason.

For some unknown reason my power supply is bleeding line signal into the ground.  I'm getting a full 60 cycle sine wave at 174 volts peak-to-peak when I touch my scope probe on the PSU ground.  This has happened to me before and I can't recall what I did to fix it.  Fortunately there is no current there, but there is voltage and that will screw me up doing any more testing until I figure out what is the problem and get it fixed.  If I can't seem to fix it, then I guess I'll have to use a battery to run the VIC.  Crikey, it's always something...
  •  

Matt
Your PSU is not grounded correctly.

 

============================

Voltage control (Fig 3) J output.

Ronnie, when you get back to the point you were in that video, I'll bet if you set half throttle, then adjust the input power to the system between 11 and 14 volts, you'll see the pulse amplitude vary.  I'm guessing Stan considered this "no big deal" or "good enough for government".

I'm actually wondering if the second TIP120 (Q5) might have been originally designed to be a three-pin voltage regulator IC (something like an LM317), but for whatever reason Stan couldn't source enough parts and just went with a transistor (TIP120).

==========================================

Matt there is no 14 volts, Stan's regulated power supply only outputs 5 10 and 12 volts. J gets its voltage from the regulated power supply from the GMS Unit.

 

There is certainly battery voltage if this thing was running his buggy.  And if the battery voltage was low, like during and shortly after starting the engine, you won't have 12 volts powering the VAC.  And once the engine is running, the alternator will be outputting between 13.8 and 14.4 volts typically.

There is certainly battery voltage if this thing was running his buggy.  And if the battery voltage was low, like during and shortly after starting the engine, you won't have 12 volts powering the VAC.  And once the engine is running, the alternator will be outputting between 13.8 and 14.4 volts typically.

although this is true,  I'm having the feeling your thinking to hard, 

did you ground the PS as Andy stated? did it help the Sig. 

i do not get that noise on my Sig as you can see in that update video i posted a while back. 

??

~Russ

sure there is battery voltage going to the + side of the primary, but the j voltage has a low limit and a high limit that is adjustable. Example I can set the low limit not to ever go under 2 volts and the upper voltage not to go over 11 volts. Ther is a switch that switches from battery voltage to J voltage on the + side

Well guys, this is the schematic for what I have bread-boarded and tested.  Seems to work fine best I can tell.

Let me know what you think.  If all are happy with it, I'll design the board to match.

Matt i saw the op apms are not used.we must offset the gnd ref higher than 0.thats the hard part..

 

======================

Matt i saw the op apms are not used.we must offset the gnd ref higher than 0.thats the hard part..

R12 & R13 can be tweaked to set the operating range as needed.  Guessing 2 to 10 volts is appropriate.  Keep in mind this is completely subjective based on the 10 ohm primary of the VIC.

 

Does the 2N3055 carry more power than the TIP120? @ Q4 & Q5

Is the 2N3055 a can?

What's the purpose of C6?

 

=======================================================

Does the 2N3055 carry more power than the TIP120? @ Q4 & Q5

Yes, Q5 carries only a few milliamps, Q4 carries all the rest.

Quote from haxar on December 29th, 2016, 01:37 AM

Is the 2N3055 a can?

Correct.  A TO-3 case.

Quote from haxar on December 29th, 2016, 01:37 AM

What's the purpose of C6?

Just a filter cap.  In normal driving conditions when you are on and off the throttle, C6 would smooth those transients.  For this fixed test board, it doesn't do much, but it doesn't hurt anything to be there either.

 

========================================================

 

Matt
Why you use inverter beetwen PLL and Vic driver?
Stan dont use it.
andy

 

============================

 

Why you use inverter beetwen PLL and Vic driver?
Stan dont use it.

Stan's driver circuit expects an inverted signal.  The optical-coupler puts it back to normal.  With no illumination on the LED, the output of the driver is in a low state instead of energized.  Could my addition of an inverting optical-coupler be a problem with a gated signal or pulses not at 50% duty cycle...?

Could be.  We may need Ronnie to weigh-in on that.

Most everyone has assumed the gate time is an off condition on the primary, but as you can see, that's not how Stan's circuit is configured.  For this driver board build, it will be the responsibility of the input signal generator to create the proper waveforms.  My goal is to make sure those waveforms go through the same components Stan used with some form of isolation so we don't blow things up while testing and tuning.  So if you want an energized gate time instead of an off time, you'll have to make your signal that way--the schematic I'm proposing won't do that automatically.

very colorful Matt...

add an optional resistor across the primary as well...  and when we get to the PCB we can make that some pin stand off's so that its easy to add / remove a tuning resistor. 

i will set this up and test it asap so you can get on with the PCB if everyone else agrees.

everyone, dont forget, we want an extremely basic way drive and adjust voltage. thats it. its the simple of simple, later we can add more of the fun stuff, but for now. we want to make a simple " hand"  tuning card... 

Matt, did you try it with your phone app? 

nice work! 

~Russ

oh and add a fuse across the input leads? 

~Russ

add an optional resistor across the primary as well...  and when we get to the PCB we can make that some pin stand off's so that its easy to add / remove a tuning resistor. 

i will set this up and test it asap so you can get on with the PCB if everyone else agrees.

Russ, if you will, find a 20 watt 10 ohm resistor as a dummy load for the VIC, then find values for R12 & R13 that limit the pulse swing across that resistor to 2 volts on the low-side and 10 volts on the high-side.  Whatever values you find, I'll cross check and update the schematic.

Quote from ~Russ on December 29th, 2016, 08:12 AM

Matt, did you try it with your phone app?

I need to find one of those mini 3.5mm stereo plugs and try it.  Should be able to find the proper resistor to make the LED in the optical-coupler work correctly.  If it needs a booster amp, I may have to add an LM358 or something.

 

 

==============================

 

Kind of having a bad day today, so I'm not sure I'll get to anything or not.  Getting old sucks.

 

Okay guys,

I built-out the complete driver, voltage control, PLL and feedback circuits.  Everything seems rock solid, best I can tell.  Granted, this is more circuitry than I had intended to build, but I wanted to see how the whole thing behaves as a unit.  From what I can see so far, it's quite an impressive design.

For the feedback I used one of my current sense transformers and just put one of the lamp leads through it.  This provides plenty of signal to the Op-Amp that tells the PLL whether it is in-phase or not.  If I was using an actual VIC that has some resonant characteristics, the PLL would track towards the resonant frequency as it should do.  With just a resistive load as I have for testing, the PLL stays locked to the frequency set by the VCO which is adjustable with the 100K pot.  What I'll probably do is connect my VIC and try some various capacitors to see if it hunts down and locks on the resonant frequency of the tank circuit.

The scope shot I'm posting here is directly across the output of the driver where the VIC primary would be connected.  As you can see, the leading edge has a nice spike that will make the VIC ring at its resonant frequency, which should be detectible from the pickup coil feedback.

So I'm curious...

Any of you guys that are way ahead of me and have done all this already, can you concur this is the proper operation of Stan's circuits?

 

 

Ronnie "Looks good to me Matt."

I built-out the complete driver, voltage control, PLL and feedback circuits.  Everything seems rock solid, best I can tell.  Granted, this is more circuitry than I had intended to build, but I wanted to see how the whole thing behaves as a unit.  From what I can see so far, it's quite an impressive design.

The water molecules are like PNP transistors. Impressive design.

 

They sure are haxar,

  • RonnieCan you continue explaining about last two question which you promised, please?andy

    Quote from haxar on December 30th, 2016, 04:09 AM

    The water molecules are like PNP transistors. Impressive design.

    Quote from gpssonar on December 30th, 2016, 04:54 AM

    They sure are haxar,

    Is that to say if you provide the proper negative bias they will conduct, short themselves out and explode into gas?

    Quote from gpssonar on December 30th, 2016, 02:42 AM

    Looks good to me Matt.

    Then in your opinion, is there really anything else needed to properly drive the VIC outside of an automobile?  Is what I have prototyped enough to do the job?  Or do we still need gating via the inhibit input of the PLL?

There is certainly battery voltage if this thing was running his buggy.  And if the battery voltage was low, like during and shortly after starting the engine, you won't have 12 volts powering the VAC.  And once the engine is running, the alternator will be outputting between 13.8 and 14.4 volts typically.

a second battery with an isolator could solve that problem too.

 

Ok. Well I spent all night and trobble shot a bad ground wire. 

In the end the voltage control is happy. 

I would add some trimmer pots instead of the fixed 1k's on the 50k pot. Eazer to set to max and min.  All resistors are diffrent. Just a thought. 

The hard part for me is that I did not have that opto you had so I never got it to drive right. 

I'll order some. Then it should be happy. 

~Russ

ok ordering parts, so far the 12V regulator needs to be 5A at least. of will blow up the regulator you haven there...

LM1084IT-12 seems to be a good choice. 

unfortunately i can only find those from china. 

next alternative is an adjustable one. 

LM1084IT-ADJ
 
or we could use those cheep converters externally.  but i don't like that idea. 


so why 5A ? because everything else is rated for no less than (max) 5A... 

~Russ

============================

 

An LM338 will do 5 amps.  I'm going to try that approach and remove the TIP120 and 2N3055 since it is already an adjustable regulator.  If the waveform doesn't change, I'll go with that.

It was my understanding we are only driving about 15 watts to the cell under max conditions.  Seems odd we would need that much overkill.

 

yeah well if we peek it for what ever reason... it will pop so...

but yes we want the coil to never go over the wire rating.. 

i already ordered some LM1084IT-ADJ... so dezighn it for that... ill send you a few... 

~Russ 

====================

there is a cheap alternative: LM2931

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/LM2931-D.PDF

figure 20 at page 9 shows how to extend amp range from 100 mA to whatever current you need by choosing adequate transistors.
fig. 20 also serves short circuit protection :)

 

======================

 

An LM338 will do 5 amps.  I'm going to try that approach and remove the TIP120 and 2N3055 since it is already an adjustable regulator.  If the waveform doesn't change, I'll go with that.

It was my understanding we are only driving about 15 watts to the cell under max conditions.  Seems odd we would need that much overkill.

I also thought about that years ago. but i think that pulsing from the switching transistor will force regulator into regulating oscillations while regulating (=power consuming) transistor won´t be interfered the same way due to "stupid" behavior instead of "intelligent" behavior of the regulator.

but needs testing of course ...

===================================

Okay, I swapped the Voltage Amplitude Control circuit for a simple LM338 setup and it seems to work fine.  Very accurate and adjustable voltage control now--1.2 volt all the way to VBAT - 1.2 volt.  The 1uF filter cap on the output is the same as in the VAC circuit.  The only issue I'm seeing at the moment is that the LM338 should probably be on a heat-sink.  It does get hot when you run a 10 ohm inductive load against it.  Surprisingly the TIP120 doesn't get hot at all--guessing because it is thrown into saturation unlike the LM338 regulator.

I also used a SN74LS221 dual monostable multivibrator for the gating signal generation into the PLL and it works flawlessly.  This design lets you set both the gate-on and normal run duration independent of each other and the pulse frequency.  I'm waiting on some logic chips to add to the circuit to prevent pulse truncation and should have some final results to report in a week or so.

For the feedback signal, I started with the LM741, which works semi-okay; an LM358 works a little better.  I ordered some LM393 comparators that I will setup as a true zero crossing detector which should work even better.  What I'm seeing so far is the better the feedback signal, the better the PLL locks to and tracks the resonant action of the output load (VIC).

So what I can say for the moment is:  I have a pretty solid all-in-one VIC driver circuit coming together.  The final board should be able to do everything we need to drive and tune a VIC.  Once Russ has an authentic replica of a VIC ready and an 11 cavity cell connected, the board I'm proposing should make it run.  From there we should all have a platform to test with.

Keep your fingers crossed guys, this may be the year we get'r done.

 

=============================================================

 

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this board is?

Pictures below from the estate photos.  I count 6 op-amps, 3 PLLs, 2 one-shots and 2 quad nor gates.

Could this be for the injector VIC?

 

=============================

 

 

 

Gas feedback control circuit. 
1: It has the pressure transducer hooked to it.
2: It maintains a certain low pressure limit.
3: If the pressure gets to a certain high pressure limit it turns the cell off.
4: It also has a pressure gauge hooked to it so you can see the pressure in the cell.

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