Analog Voltage Generator 3

 

 

Looks like when you guys finish with electronics bump into the core problem at The end that i was ranting for mounths..but no one wants a flat core and puling their hair out with complicated 2 core setup where you have 4 gaps to tune instead of 2 and inductances going trough The roof at 13H insted of 1.2H even with a gap

 

===================================

Adys15,

I had a flat core but got rid of it. It was just too brittle to mess with, cracked too easily. 

I'm looking for a different core right now. Until we hear from Ronnie on the coil configuration I'm not going to waste my time testing. 

In the mean time I'll be looking for a core that can fit all four coils on it. If I find any I'll update you guys. 

The biggest problem with finding a core is finding one with the right characteristics....If the AL is too high getting the right inductance values will result in too much loss of coupling. 

That's why Stan used a core with such a small area. 
==================================

 

You are Right HMS..I feel the same
I posted this some Time but maibe it helps 
http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/u93_76_16-3c90/ferrite-cores/ferroxcube/

U93-76-16

That is a good size, just about what we need. 

The Al is 3400nH per turn so 609 turns would be enough for the L1 choke but then your turns and resistance would be off.

We could buy some then have the legs cut to make them 16mm x 16mm square and cut 12mm off the ends to make them 16mm x 16mm as well. That would make them closer to Stan's size and reduce the AL value.

 

================================================

 

FERROXCUBE U93/76/16-3C90

Core: ferrite; U; Mat:3C90; 3400nH 22 eglish pounds

============================

 

his may just be a wild off-the-wall idea, but I some feelings about the coils and cores used in the VIC.

If we look at the two chokes as antenna loading coils that are slightly out-of-phase with each other, then the gapped core really is only there to provide a mechanism to get the chokes to oscillate at their SRF.  One of the chokes (L2) basically vibrates at the input frequency.  The other choke (L1) vibrates at the same SRF as the secondary.  The diode between the secondary and L1 keeps these two coils from acting like a single coil which would have a much lower SRF.  In my viewpoint, the core becomes a transfer medium to get these vibrations to propagate.  If the flux that jumps the gap overpowers the SRF of the secondary and L1, you're sunk.  If the flux is too weak to jump the gap effectively, you're sunk.  So the core must have just the right characteristics to allow the gap to be relatively easy to adjust--probably in the range of 2mm to 10mm.  My feeling is with the wrong core, you can't tune the VIC by adjusting the gap width.  With a proper core (whatever that turns out to be), it should be real easy to find the proper gap setting that will allow the two chokes (specifically the L1) to work as they need to.

Quote from HMS-776 on January 23rd, 08:15 AM

The biggest problem with finding a core is finding one with the right characteristics....If the AL is too high getting the right inductance values will result in too much loss of coupling. 

That's why Stan used a core with such a small area.

I think you are exactly correct HMS.  There is a sweet spot where things are easy to tune.  Anything else and you really have your hands full or simply can't get it to work.

Good points there Matt.

Stan's core really is a one off design. He needed the high number of turns to reduce the voltage between them...But he also needed a high permeability core to get a good coupling and at the same time a small AL value. 

Finding a core with similar characteristics might not be possible. The way I see it we can have them specifically made or we can buy something then cut it to a smaller size. 

My only issue is that the thin core like Stan had is brittle (my original one broke) so I want to find something else that all coils can fit on. 

=============================================

 

 

Quote from Dom on January 22nd, 04:35 AM

Here are my coils i have removed them from my housing as the secondary coil is splitting and needs to be replaced.
The second pic is how i have wired it.

Brad, 

Please do place your coils like this photo Dom posted. 

I was able to get some interesting results as you watched in my live streams from Manny years ago. 

i will post all of them here now just so there in one place. 

my cores were in isolated holders as well. 

my conclusion was that any resistance killed the resonance. 

Here are all those videos: its a lot but scan through them. 

scroll down to about 2 years ago. there are video after video of this duel core set up. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/RWGresearchLive/videos

also remember that you can get all bobbins on theses Chinese cores... by going like this:

 

============================================================

 

small changes and we are good to go... about the best you can do with those cores... 

we all already have... 

Russ
This setup of cores has the gaps in improper place - in the middle of the each coils.

================================================================

I tend to agree with andy.  You have two too many gaps and those gaps look way too big for that type of core.  Don't think those will work based on my current understanding of how the VIC possibly works.

===================================================

Matt
We can make the bobbins shorter and gap will be smaller but still the gaps will be in the middle of each coils.
Stans VIC have 2 gaps beetwen 2 pairs of coils.

====================================================

"small changes and we are good to go..." ~Russ

This was just a demonstration :facepalm: ...

~Russ 


PS if they were not clear you would not have know lol 

the bobbins turn to put it all the way in ... theses were already glued

======================================================

 

We get something to work and many variations people can actually source parts for and build will be on the table.

 

======================================================

 

It seems that all coils have to be coupled for this to work. 

I have been looking into other cores that could hold all four coils but it's difficult to find anything near what Stan was using.

If we use a different size core it might be possible to use a different gauge wire to get the same number of turns and resistance as Stan's. The only concern then is coil capacitance. Compare 27 and 29AWG and you find it would take 500ft more of 27awg wire to get the same 76.7 ohms resistance.
So the difference in capacitance might prevent it from working....arrrrgh!

Adys15 posted a link to a large ferrite core. It's properties are similar to the China U cores were using now, but it has a higher AL value. 

One problem I am seeing, and something which makes sense about Stan's custom made cores is this: When you have a core with a high AL value and you try to gap it to tune the inductance as the gap changes the AL tolerances also change. This makes tuning even more difficult, you can imagine that any vibration or even the smallest change in the gap will change the inductance values and could prevent resonance...Even the vibration the coils create in the core could do this.

That is why Stan needed a core with a large surface area but a small volume. Do the math and you find his ferrite core had an AL value of around 100-120.
Most ungapped ferrite cores have an AL value over 2000.

========================================================

 

I've been asked about my drive circuit. So here it is. You will likely have to change some of the resistor values to get it working correctly. I just drew it up without checking the values in my circuit as I've made so many changes to it over the last few weeks. It drives the coil just fine but no resonance so no guarantees it will work.

Lately Matt and others have discovered that Stan's Drive circuit changes the duty cycle as the frequency changes, mine does not do that.
The work continues, now you guys know how to get variable amplitude pulsing during the off time though!

Also, if you want to add a DC bias simply connect a pot from Vdd to gnd then put the center pin on the base of the Tip120, that's what I'm doing, using a 5k pot with a 1K resistor at the Tip120 base.

Lately Matt and others have discovered that Stan's Drive circuit changes the duty cycle as the frequency changes, mine does not do that.

My suspicion is this tapered duty cycle relates to the L1 & L2 coils:  pulse-off-time effecting the L2 & pulse-on-time effecting the L1.  Just a hunch at this point.  What is clear to me though is Stan's circuit manipulates the duty cycle for a reason, else he would have used a much more simple drive mechanism.

Ronnie did mention somewhere among the hurricane of posts that impedance match has two criteria:  One when the pulse is on and the other when the pulse is off.  Again, there must be a reason and I suspect the chokes and duty cycle play into this.



I want to apologize for slacking off as of late.  My desk is in total disarray with bobbins, wire, bread-boards, parts and test equipment.  If that weren't enough, dentists and psychotic computers have zapped a good portion of my time.  Hoping to get focused again here soon.  I have a bunch of supplies to send to Russ and he has graciously offered to wind my bobbins on his Pro Winder machine.  When that is done and I have real stuff to begin testing with again, we may just get a few answers to some of my theories.
Then it's on to doing a final VIC Driver Board design and getting some boards fab'd and populated.  Still need a decent cell to test with, but one step at a time they say...

 

 

========================

Looks like the circuit schematic you posted isn't complete...
~webmug

 

==================

Doesn't matter Russ.  Scope through the driver circuit and you will see the 50% duty cycle is maintained all the way through until you get to the base of the TIP120--that's where you'll see duty cycle gets altered.

Matt, I checked the base of the TIP120 in my circuit, I don't see any change in duty cycle as I increase the frequency?

Are you sure it's not part of the voltage amplitude control circuit? 
To me it seems that's where it's coming from, the capacitor resistor diode network there? 

I would like to integrate it into my circuit if there's a way. Right now building the whole thing is out of the question until I order more components. 


Webmug, you can use the same logic Stan used and it will do the same thing. I just wanted to do things differently, see how well that worked lol, Still searching for resonance.

Btw, I'm still working on the circuit...I might need to change the TIP120 to something else. When I adjust the amplitude during the gate I don't see any pulsing on the primary during the gate until the amplitude reaches close to the amplitude of the typical incoming pulses to the tip120 base, then it pretty much just saturates.  
I think a darlington won't work if your trying to adjust the pulse amplitude like I am doing.

==================================\

 

Matt, I checked the base of the TIP120 in my circuit, I don't see any change in duty cycle as I increase the frequency?

Are you sure it's not part of the voltage amplitude control circuit?

Positive.

Build the VIC circuit as we have posted in this thread and scope through each transistor.  Until you get to the TIP120, you will see a nice 50% duty cycle.  At that final drive is where you'll see the voltage shift that causes the TIP120 to lag at turn-off.  As you up the frequency, you'll get to a point where the output of the TIP120 is always on--100% duty cycle.  To me this behavior looks clearly by design.  It's a linear tapering of the duty cycle controlled by the frequency.  What that means is you can precisely control the duty cycle to PPM resolution by adjusting the frequency.  And as I mentioned before, my theory is the off-time should sync with the L2 and the on-time with the L1--the L2 being slightly higher frequency (shorter wire length).  I honestly think the wire length on those two chokes is far more important than anyone has considered to this point.  They control the exact phasing the cell sees.  Brettly posted some wavelength numbers in the centimeter range that is critical to water disassociation.  So we're talking phase shift frequencies in the gigahertz range.

 

=======================================

Positive.

Build the VIC circuit as we have posted in this thread and scope through each transistor.  Until you get to the TIP120, you will see a nice 50% duty cycle.  At that final drive is where you'll see the voltage shift that causes the TIP120 to lag at turn-off.  As you up the frequency, you'll get to a point where the output of the TIP120 is always on--100% duty cycle.  To me this behavior looks clearly by design.  It's a linear tapering of the duty cycle controlled by the frequency.  What that means is you can precisely control the duty cycle to PPM resolution by adjusting the frequency.  And as I mentioned before, my theory is the off-time should sync with the L2 and the on-time with the L1--the L2 being slightly higher frequency (shorter wire length).  I honestly think the wire length on those two chokes is far more important than anyone has considered to this point.  They control the exact phasing the cell sees.  Brettly posted some wavelength numbers in the centimeter range that is critical to water disassociation.  So we're talking phase shift frequencies in the gigahertz range.

Thanks for the reply, looks like I'll be building that circuit. 

Where does the voltage shift come from?

 

===================================

 

Positive.

Build the VIC circuit as we have posted in this thread and scope through each transistor.  Until you get to the TIP120, you will see a nice 50% duty cycle.  At that final drive is where you'll see the voltage shift that causes the TIP120 to lag at turn-off.  As you up the frequency, you'll get to a point where the output of the TIP120 is always on--100% duty cycle.  To me this behavior looks clearly by design.  It's a linear tapering of the duty cycle controlled by the frequency.  What that means is you can precisely control the duty cycle to PPM resolution by adjusting the frequency.  And as I mentioned before, my theory is the off-time should sync with the L2 and the on-time with the L1--the L2 being slightly higher frequency (shorter wire length).  I honestly think the wire length on those two chokes is far more important than anyone has considered to this point.  They control the exact phasing the cell sees.  Brettly posted some wavelength numbers in the centimeter range that is critical to water disassociation.  So we're talking phase shift frequencies in the gigahertz range.

@matt,
The wire-lengths of the chokes are equal in Stans Injector VIC, this is designed because the coils are on the same core-leg. The other VIC have their coils on different core legs placed further away from the secondary coil field where the mutual inductance is calculated differently.

So the DU (duty-cycle)  should always be 50% for T1-T2.

That TIP only maintains 50% DU if you pulse below 10kHz frequency at 50% DU. Also the hfe drops above 10kHz.

And adjusting the frequency makes no sense changing the DU, the VIC has only one resonant frequency.

~webmug

Posted for reference.  Not yet fabricated or populated. 

Tested only on bread-board.
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/5HX2hT1a

This version uses the LM338 VAC.  Still working on the 2N3055 VAC version.

  •  

Nice work Matt, real nice 

 

===============================

 

Quote from Webmug on February 3rd, 02:44 AM

@matt,
The wire-lengths of the chokes are equal in Stans Injector VIC, this is designed because the coils are on the same core-leg. The other VIC have their coils on different core legs placed further away from the secondary coil field where the mutual inductance is calculated differently.

So the DU (duty-cycle)  should always be 50% for T1-T2.

I certainly cannot deny that fact.  Still trying to wrap my head around a meaningful mode of operation.

Quote from Webmug on February 3rd, 02:44 AM

That TIP only maintains 50% DU if you pulse below 10kHz frequency at 50% DU. Also the hfe drops above 10kHz.

What I have observed is if you pull-down the collector of Q8 with a pot, you can extend the frequency range beyond the point where the duty cycle hits 100%.  This now becomes a tunable parameter.

Quote from Webmug on February 3rd, 02:44 AM

And adjusting the frequency makes no sense changing the DU, the VIC has only one resonant frequency.

I'm not yet convinced.  There must be something at play dictating the phase alignment of the two signals going to the cell.  If this phase angle was always 0 or 180 referenced to some neutral point, I just can't see how this system could possibly work.

 

 

 

Thank you Lynx.

I wanted to get this out there so it isn't lost.  Did way too much work on it to have it disappear.  Still more to go with the version Russ is interested in, but I think this is a good template to work from for the moment.

 

================================

 

Quote from Matt Watts on January 28th, 11:45 PM

My suspicion is this tapered duty cycle relates to the L1 & L2 coils:  pulse-off-time effecting the L2 & pulse-on-time effecting the L1.  Just a hunch at this point.  What is clear to me though is Stan's circuit manipulates the duty cycle for a reason, else he would have used a much more simple drive mechanism.

Ronnie did mention somewhere among the hurricane of posts that impedance match has two criteria:  One when the pulse is on and the other when the pulse is off.  Again, there must be a reason and I suspect the chokes and duty cycle play into this.



I want to apologize for slacking off as of late.  My desk is in total disarray with bobbins, wire, bread-boards, parts and test equipment.  If that weren't enough, dentists and psychotic computers have zapped a good portion of my time.  Hoping to get focused again here soon.  I have a bunch of supplies to send to Russ and he has graciously offered to wind my bobbins on his Pro Winder machine.  When that is done and I have real stuff to begin testing with again, we may just get a few answers to some of my theories.
Then it's on to doing a final VIC Driver Board design and getting some boards fab'd and populated.  Still need a decent cell to test with, but one step at a time they say...

Matt, no apologies excepted. 
 
we are all human here. we have things to do, it takes time... i'm in the same boat. new PC in the home lab, laptop re imagined, and the wife's PC. im  there now. everything is backed up and back on line. 

must finish that EPG winder and get it shipped out. its paying some bills... 

will get there. I got some extra goodies for ya... will take me more time to get them back to you.. But its good! ~Russ

 

==========================

 

Thank you Lynx.

I wanted to get this out there so it isn't lost.  Did way too much work on it to have it disappear.  Still more to go with the version Russ is interested in, but I think this is a good template to work from for the moment.

you mean the Stan Version! 

 

================================

You could state it that way, but since Stan is gone and none of us have access to his original equipment, I don't think there will be any Stan versions floating around amongst us.  I'll happily settle for a Russ Gries version as long as it works.

 

=============================

 

You could state it that way, but since Stan is gone and none of us have access to his original equipment, I don't think there will be any Stan versions floating around amongst us.  I'll happily settle for a Russ Gries version as long as it works.   :-)

well... its not my version, its Stan...  Just Simplified. 
END. 
PS. Speak soon. another weekend... get to work! :) ~Russ

======================================

you mean the Stan Version! :)

I allow revisions to Stan's original circuit. I support Matt's revision or "fork." ////fair enough haxar

======================================

That's because of our greater understanding

=======================================

I put a 2n3055 in place of the TIP120 today...Noticed a change in duty cycle with frequency, interesting

======================================

You mean on the driver side, not the VAC correct?​

===================================

Yes,  put in in place of the TIP120 that drives the primary coil.

==================================

do you have a multisim file for this circuit compatible with 12?

================================

do you have a multisim file for this circuit compatible with 12?

Newguy,Not sure if your talking to me or Matt?

The last time I designed a drive circuit I designed it in multisim then made the PCB then found problems.
This time around it's all on the breadboard until I get a few things corrected. Until then the only thing I have was the schematic I posted earlier which was revision1. Currently working on a new revision.

Something I'm trying to understand is how Stan's drive circuit causes the change in duty cycle? 
-Can anyone explain that?

=====================================

HMS
Change in duty cycle  with frequency is caused by slow time of turn-on and slow turn-off time of the 2N3055 , and TIP120.
Check datasheet of these transistors.

 

==================================

Thanks Andy, I was not looking at the voltage amplitude controller before.
===================================

Remember, bipolar transistors "trigger" on current, not voltage like a MOSFET does.  So if you increase the drive current coming out of the 2N3906 by adding a pull-down resistor to ground, you also effectively increase the turn-off current, making the TIP120 respond quicker.  Without that pull-down, the TIP120 kind of floats during turn-off, making it lag.  This lag is what causes the duty cycle to head towards 100%.

This is not a factor of the Voltage Amplitude Control portion of the circuit.  You can set the high-side to the 12 volt rail and still see the same effect.

It's all about transistor biasing.  You'll notice on all the other transistors (Q6, Q7 & Q8), they all have biasing resistors in front of their base--little voltage divider networks.  When you add a similar voltage divider network in front of the TIP120, it's frequency response, or usable range, goes up quite a bit.  I do caution trying to get back to a solid 50% duty cycle though, as I still tend to think there as a reason for this roll-off behavior.

=====================================

Thanks Matt, good explanation. I think I've figured a few ways to make my circuit do the same thing. I'll be making some changes later this week. 

So, anyone been testing lately? 

 

======================================

So, anyone been testing lately?

getting ramped up to do so as i said in my last update post... 
I'm making Matt's coils... as well as mine... (again) with different wire,  so me an Matt will be able check apples to apples. 
just need to get Matt a proper cell and he will be "set" 
~Russ

======================================

Are those the two VIC cores setup or for the flat one?
I bet there are more in need of a proper cell :)  But its good to read your going to check apples to apples! :)
~webmug

======================================

Are those the two VIC cores setup or for the flat one?
I bet there are more in need of a proper cell :)  But its good to read your going to check apples to apples! :)
~webmug

=======================================

there will be 4 types of core set ups. 
more once we get there. its not ready yet... Matt dose not even know just yet what ill be sending him he he... 
we will get to the bottom of this some tome...  ~Russ 

PS. with the help of amazing fends we were able to get Matt a good set of original cores we ordered. as well as i have 2 different perm flat cores coming my way for testing ( borrowing them)....

~Russ

Great! :)


Importaint are the core materials specs, curve, type used for reference notes. I still have my two types of cores to compare. But coils are not the same you have, different apple, lol 
Are you using red wire for the coils?
If you can test 10 cells with that new vic is a good start! :)
~webmug

Matt dose not even know just yet what ill be sending him he he...

Yawzaa!

Speaking of "not knowing", a package is heading your way this evening.  Hope you can use some more amps.   :-P

My biggest fear is that everything doesn't make it there in one piece.  I have my fingers crossed.  If the good Lord is willing and the creek don't rise...

=========================

yeah i seen that... 19lb for 5PS, im guessing the 45LB will get me a few more amps hehe, 

at least you dont have the cores in those bobbins.. haha then i would be afraid. Els supper glue dose wonders :)

=======================

Importaint are the core materials specs, curve, type used for reference notes. I still have my two types of cores to compare. But coils are not the same you have, different apple, lol 
Are you using red wire for the coils?
If you can test 10 cells with that new vic is a good start! :)

you only have one flat core right? the other is the china core? 

red... well they might be brown or green... but they all still have 5 seeds... 

~Russ 

PS. I only have 7 ( 8 if you count the bodged one ) cells... so its what i got for now... I may be able to make up one more. i think i got the SS parts, i just need to get the plastics parts and such to do so... 

 

=======================================

No china cores, just two type of material flat cores sets Dynodon measured dimensions. 
Stan had red wire, so that is the coating, solderable red i assume ohh well... :)
~webmug

==========================================

What Is the source for the other flat core and do you have any info on it? 
yes well the wire is wire... we got stuff ( Matt Got) That has high dielectric coating... Matt can you post a direct link here? ( or in the "parts section") 
Thanks!! ~Russ 

==========================================

Wire is not wire, it coatings changes the self-capacitance of the coils.
One core set was from Per Ritter 2000 perm. and the other custom made same as you have.
~webmug

===========================================

Wire link 

https://www.temcoindustrial.com/29-awg-copper-magnet-wire-5-lb-mw0534-magnetic-coil-gpmr200.html

29 AWG Copper Magnet Wire MW0534 - 5 lb Magnetic Coil Amber GP/MR-200

Be the first to review this product

12325 ft 200°C

Availability: In stock

$55.50

 

 Add to Cart

 

 

Wire is not wire, it coatings changes the self-capacitance of the coils.

I sure hope it puts us in the ballpark.   My hunch is the process that Russ uses to wind these coils will be more critical than the coating on the wire itself.  Again, we won't know until we try it.  Whatever we do though, it has to be something we can all replicate, because if we get one replication working, that needs to be the beginning, not the end of what is to follow.

 

==============================

These guys may be able to help us with cores:
http://www.customcores.com/prototypes/

 

CONTACT US TODAY

Call us: (845) 383-0788
Fax us: (845) 383-0789
Email us: pci@customcores.com

 

Concerning U cores. You just ask for a quote on the amount you want. It must be
the same cores as Per Ritter ordered 7/22/2014 Order Number: 351207.
"Tom Corrigan" <tcorrigan@elnamagnetics.com>

 

==================================

 

Been a while since we saw some activity in this thread.  Time to get busy I reckon.

First run of boards are in.

========================

 

 

Yey. Time to debug.

 

Not too bad Hax, only four relatively minor issues:

 

  • Changed the resistor for the LED--was a tad too large for this green one.

  • Cut a trace and added a resistor to the bottom of the board to protect a transistor.

  • Had two caps reversed that control the gating.

  • Too small of holes for the terminal blocks--had to scrape the pins down with a knife to get them to fit.

Other than that it works.  PLL locks right in.  Yeah team!   Attached is the schematic as it currently sits.

Going from a breadboard to a PCB sure makes the same circuit far more stable.  I wouldn't have thought that only running in the audio range.

Okay so I got to ask everyone:

Do you want just the board or the whole thing populated?  If populated, do you want them roughly tuned also?

Do you want me to order a newer slightly improved version that has the bugs I found fixed?

Do you want to wait for the "Russ requested version" that is nearly identical to Stan's circuits?

Do you want to wait until I have coils hooked to this so I can better demonstrate what it does?


I'm game to help with these boards however people prefer.  I have two unpopulated boards that aren't doing me any good at the moment if someone wants one of those.  I'm going to keep pressing forward regardless.  The goal is to eliminate any struggle people might have on the electronics side, by making something as close to plug-n-play as I possibly can.  I know that's what it will take to get some of you guys (uh hum, Lynx) fully onboard.

I'll take one.

I'll also take: Respun, populated and working as intended (tuned).

If that happens, you could tune all the boards the same way at the same time (quality check). We could all have a reference board to study on.

Once the board is set in stone, we could figure what to do from there. :clap2:

This question asked makes me confused how you tested the circuit in the first place?

You wrote the pll works by locking in...on what?? I tested multiple coils where the signal from the pickup coil should be in phase with the primary input pulse. Guess what...there are distortions of pulses...(converted ac to dc) were there is no phase sync. So if this occurs you cant test the pll. You want 50% du in and out...

This out off phase with harmonics occurs when the vic transformer coils are not tuned (capacitance, inductance) and each vic transformer has different capacitance, inductance. So one vic card cant be correctly calibrated for different vics.

Also all the ic chips must equal type of the same series, change the part and you have different operation of the circuit.

Also what still is unanswered, on what frequency the vic had resonance and also the doubling of frequency phenomenon. Right now with the capacitance, inductance and core I have a resonance frequency of 16kHz.

The circuit can only pulse 50% du, max. Approx. 10khz, after that dutycycle starts to change.I only can say, Matt try to test it first with a proper vic with fb coil and wfc and experiment with it before you start to sell that card. I want to see some scope measurements of in/out/phase signals and data first btw. 

My opinion..
~webmug

 

=============

 

You wrote the pll works by locking in...on what??

Any signal that passes through the current sense transformer.Using this current sense transformer as a mixer has a huge advantage BTW.  You can connect the feedback to it and turn things on.  What will happen is the PLL will immediately lock at its base frequency of 1kHz thereabout.  With the feedback disconnected, the VCO will sit at the base frequency out of lock, but steady at 1kHz.  Now what is cool is you can use the feedback and let the PLL lock, then send another signal through the current sense transformer from your signal generator and walk the frequency all around.  If you disconnect the signal generator, the PLL will hold that lock at whatever frequency you were at when you disconnected the signal generator.  So what we have is a very slick-n-easy way to do frequency scanning while under PLL control.  If something in the VIC is resonating, the PLL will drift right to that resonant condition and stay there.I haven't done this testing with the "real" VIC yet, but I have done it on my mockup VIC and it does just what I'm saying.  Another quite interesting thing you can do when your core is gapped is place the pickup coil anywhere near that gap on the outside and the PLL will lock.  If you close the gap which lowers the leakage flux, the PLL will come out of lock (no signal).  With my big cores pulsing at only two volts and a 2mm gap, I can be an inch out and away from the gap and the PLL with still sense enough signal to lock.  It gives you an idea just how much flux is escaping from the core when you have an air gap.

============================

 

So if this occurs you cant test the pll. You want 50% du in and out...

The PLL will lock to any signal input regardless of duty cycle.  It's only looking for the zero cross of the current; that becomes the phase alignment the PLL attempts to sync with.

The output is no less than 50% duty cycle.  There is a pot I added that will stretch the range to about 60kHz before 100% duty cycle is reached, depending upon the make of the TIP120 used.  You can use the pot to set the cutoff however you like within reason.

Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 07:17 AM

So one vic card cant be correctly calibrated for different vics.

True, but it can be referenced to a starting point.  Gating, voltage level, center frequency and duty cycle cutoff can be set to known values.  I can tell you right now, if I populated one of these boards and sent it to you without this pre-tuning, you'd be pulling your hair out for a while trying to guess what all those pots do and which way to turn them.  I've been through it few times myself.  You have to know what kind of signals to inject, where to place your probes and what to look for.  My thought is to set minimal gating, two volt output, center frequency around 15 kHz with the duty cycle cutoff at 30kHz.  From there you could tweak things however they need to be for the VIC you connect it to.

Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 07:17 AM

Also all the ic chips must equal type of the same series, change the part and you have different operation of the circuit.

Margin of error.  I can tell you right now, I can produce two boards that are so very close in behavior and performance that I could not tell which one was which without marking them.  If we need precision greater than this to make the VIC function, we'll be swinging at bats in a dark room for a long time.

Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 07:17 AM

Also what still is unanswered, on what frequency the vic had resonance and also the doubling of frequency phenomenon. Right now with the capacitance, inductance and core I have a resonance frequency of 16kHz.

I don't think we can be sure "resonance" is the necessary condition where the splitting of the water molecules happens.  The frequency may be close to resonance in one of the coils, or all of the coils or someplace else.  I'm pretty sure there is some frequency where the magic happens.  We really have no choice but to let the test apparatus talk to us.  We have to sense what it wants, what it needs to do the thing we are after.

Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 07:17 AM

The circuit can only pulse 50% du, max. Approx. 10khz, after that dutycycle starts to change.

Fifty percent duty cycle minimum.  With the pot I added, you can control how this duty cycle cutoff behaves, which I still think is important.

Quote from Webmug on February 19th, 07:17 AM

I only can say, Matt try to test it first with a proper vic with fb coil and wfc and experiment with it before you start to sell that card. I want to see some scope measurements of in/out/phase signals and data first btw.

That's the plan.  If I had all of Ronnie's stuff sitting on my bench and working, we would be well ahead of the game.  I don't and won't, so we need to work a little slower and pull ourselves up inch by inch until we can see where we need to go next.  This board is my first crack at trying to elevate just one inch higher; that is all for the moment.  I've studied and played with the circuits Stan shows us in the patents and in his estate photos enough to say that this board I produced should be a step in the right direction.  We still have a long way to go.

I like the work you guys are doing with the drive circuit and pll and I'll definately buy one. The only thing I wonder is if it will make things easier or more complicated?

Ronnie told me the first time he got his cell working he was using a very basic two channel function generator. His vic was an ots transformer and a set of chokes he made. He was not using any of Stan's circuits and got it working. 

Does anyone know what he's using now?  Last I heard it was the PGEN?

But all of this tuning has been a nightmare. I would be pretty excited if all I had to do was connect a pll to get the cell working. I have not been working on the wfc lately but the last drive circuit I put together did show the duty cycle change.

=====================================

Hi Matt,
Very nice work... My compliments.
To answer your question:
I`d like  to wait for the "Russ requested version" that is nearly identical to Stan's circuits.
I hope it`s a version with the good old 2N3055.
Regards Alberto

====================================

Here's is the latest-n-greatest PCB I just finished designing.  It has several bugs fixed.  It is smaller, cheaper and has test & jumper pins added to make it easier to get tuned.  It also uses a meshed copper pour on the bottom acting as a signal shield.

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/lc5whvXr

Attached is a ZIP file with all the DipTrace design work--Component libraries, schematic and board layout.  Also in there is a bill of material file you can upload directly to Mouser.com to get the parts you need, though I caution buying in small quantities due to the heavy markup.  Get at least 10 of everything to save some money overall, then you can help a friend.   :blink2:

Once I have this PCB in my hand with all the components populated, I'll do some testing to make sure all the bugs are fixed and that everything performs as expected.  Then it's on to the more original version which will be larger, more complicated and more expensive.  I suppose after that we can do some comparison tests and see if there are features missing from one version or the other that is needed.

I still have this feeling if we seek frequency doubling, the PLL should be outputting half the frequency it sees on the feedback.  I haven't really seen a discussion here about this.  Stan's circuits have banks of divide-by-ten and whether those are actually used or not is still in question.  My thought is we should have a selectable (jumper) that inserts a D flip-flop between the comparator and the signal into the PLL.  I just wish I knew for sure if the "frequency doubling" is actually seen by the comparator or if this is an artifact we only see in the coils, not the core.  If we don't see it in the core, maybe we need to get our feedback signal from some other source, then we could be sure to have the PLL lock into the correct driving frequency.  The whole point of the PLL is to make this thing completely automatic, which it will do if it can see what it needs to lock into.

ZIP FILE PARTS BPARD V5

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqxyHUVb2_mlpwdLsHs4l97uiS7c

 

I'm not certain yet, but I may have discovered an oversight in our thinking here.

I was researching various capacitive discharge circuits and came about the topology shown in the attachment below.

It dawned on me the VIC circuit has this same parallel diode across the primary and would have the same characteristic response as shown in Figure 5.  Basically we charge the primary and when it kicks back, the parallel diode holds the current in the primary until it dissipates and with a 10 ohm primary, that happens pretty fast.

What occurred to me is we are actually using a capacitive discharge circuit, but the "C" in Figure 4 is unknown.  We simply do not know how much charge the primary actually gets when the TIP120 conducts.  We know the voltage and we know the duration, but there is more to it than that.

I'm really wondering if a capacitive discharge circuit in this application would be helpful.  Then based on the value of the capacitor we would know exactly how many joules we just sent to the primary for each cycle/pulse.  Call it precision charge metering.  I'm actually working on a circuit based off the IR21844 to test this theory a little more in detail.  I don't know if any of this is important or not.   I just found it interesting when I stumbled upon it.

It´s all about that single peak shown in figure 5. Sufficient maximum peak voltage over RC at secondary will do the job (like on a spark plug - but ionization instead of lightning). 

so this is a crossroad point - some say high voltage is important for gas production others say high voltage is not important for gas production but another mechanism. Who´s correct - who´s wrong?

My opinion: voltage is most important and other mechanisms like resonance, impedance matching and frequency filtering/tuning are supportive methods to maximize voltage output on the secondary. Create > 1000 V over a single Stan Meyer dimentioned tube for a peak moment of time by using a mechanism like in a charge pump and you are done. Unfortunately to create that condition is more difficult than expected.

If someone has a system up and running as Ronnie said he has it´s not likely that peak output voltage is unknown. Indeed that´s the first measurement done in operation ;)

So once more - why are no voltages over the cell documented related to gas production yet???

My opinion: voltage is most important ...

I would agree Gunther, but as suggested in the later posts of this thread, voltage may not be all we think it is.  I would be willing to bet if two devices were built, one that generates T.E.M. waves and another that generates L.M.D. waves, very few people would recognize the differences in the output.  Both would produce measurable voltage but the effects of each device on various objects would be quite different. 

 

If these two devices were in sealed black boxes where we had no idea of the circuitry contained within, most people would eventually give up trying to understand the differences.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on March 5th, 11:03 PM

Unfortunately to create that condition is more difficult than expected.

I'll go a step further.  If you create high voltage the wrong way, it will be impossible to achieve the effects you desire.

So Gunther, lets find out.

Ronnie, does your VIC output T.E.M. waves to your water fuel cell or does it output L.M.D. waves?

For the record:

T.E.M. is associated with magnetic field energy (slowed to speed of light).
L.M.D. is associated with dielectric field energy (no impedance and not inhibited to speed of light).

 

=======================================

L.M.D. reminds me of Daniel Nunez's experiments on his Vortex coils, using resonance with no resistors to light an LED with barely any current consumed. Add any resistor, and it won't light.

Here's this: Add a resistor, you add a load, consuming electrons. Take a long loop of wire with a high impedance, and you have a pick-up coil, not a load. These two do not behave the same way, in regards to impedance and load.

 

==============================Hopefully with the deltaavalon.com site no longer operational, there isn't any copyright violation by posting this.  If there is, I'll take it down.  In the meantime I think it is worth looking at.  There is a lot of information packed in this presentation you can research further if you so desire.  The main topics I'd like to direct your attention to is the existence of a dielectric field and the necessity of containing this field in what Stan refers to as a wave guide.  And though the VIC looks much different than a Tesla coil, I do tend to think it is providing the same overall function--the creation of L.M.D. waves that are used to separate the water molecules.  If I'm wrong, please do state your case for all of us to discuss.  Right or wrong, we need to get to the bottom of how this device actually performs the way Stan suggested it does.

==========

 

Tesla electricity English full version.pdf - 

As you suggest in the other thread I started, if we get our heads wrapped around what is happening and the utility of these concepts, there would be no going back to conventional electronics.  It might just be enough to make the impossible, possible.

 

============================

Matt
Do you tested your new fabricated board with VIC new coils from Russ?

 

===========================

Do you tested your new fabricated board with VIC new coils from Russ?

You mean these?


These boards are sweet.  Took the first one out of the envelope, put it in the vice, soldered on all the components and it works like a charm.  But no, I haven't tested it yet with the new coils because, well, Russ is taking one day at a time.  We'll get there gang.

In the meantime, I'll work on a video to show what these do, how you tune them to initial settings and let you see them in action.  Then you all can decide if you want to jump in or wait for the "Stan Original" version.  Personally, I think you'll like these.  I also think if we figure out "the coil magic", they'll do the job just fine.

===================================

 

What signal are you generating? Sine? 

What you can do is place a secondary coil with a cap in series on your core and then find the resonance frequency of that tank. Pulsing the primary coil. The feedback should pickup the resonance frequency of the tank (seeing a sine 50% DU).

~webmug

Quote from Webmug on March 9th, 06:36 AM

Great informative video

You're welcome.  A few blunders in there with the units I stated, but hopefully everyone knows what I meant.

Quote from Webmug on March 9th, 06:36 AM

What signal are you generating? Sine?

It was actually set to square wave, but I just tried it with sine and triangle and the feedback signal is identical.  If I change the duty cycle you can see it.  You can see narrow pulses too.  The nice thing is the PLL tracks the frequency regardless of the wave shape the comparator gives it.

Quote from Webmug on March 9th, 06:36 AM

What you can do is place a secondary coil with a cap in series on your core and then find the resonance frequency of that tank. Pulsing the primary coil. The feedback should pickup the resonance frequency of the tank (seeing a sine 50% DU).

Maybe, maybe not.  It depends on which "signal" is stronger.  Keep in mind the primary IS a tank circuit coupled with the capacitors in the driver and power rails.  This is my thinking anyway with why I'm able to get it to resonate with no secondary to speak of.  It could also be a factor of connecting the scope--that's added capacitance on the primary side.  The negative side of the scope is a lot of capacitance since it's earth grounded.

But yes, I've driven a tank circuit with this board and it does find and lock to what I think is the fundamental frequency.  I haven't run the numbers to be sure.  I can accurately measure the capacitance and frequency and use those two values to calculate what I think the inductance is.  I'm not sure LCR meters do it this way, but it's how I would do it, especially in this situation.  Then you'd know exactly what the parameters are in the exact conditions you are testing for.  Other methods would seem to be rather synthetic.

There's a lot of experimenting that can be done and it's probably worth the time to use a little imagination and get a feel for all the behaviors this driver can elicit.  The more you know, hopefully the less mistakes you make and the quicker you converge on a solution.

Nice work Matt, 
great informative video. 

coils out the door soon... 

also, one more thing to adjust. 

the low end of the pulse. ( let it be 2V) thats controlled by a resistor, can we place a pot in there? will it adjust correctly?

only thing i can think of. 

looks clean, that current scene transformer looks kike its picking up that sig really nicely. 

i think we may need to take in to consideration the time it takes for that "loop" to do its thing ( there is all ways a tinny delay on those current scene transformers) have you looked at the spec sheet to determon the delay and if its something to worry about? 

any how just some thoughts. 

I like the color of those boards :) 

~Russ 

also, one more thing to adjust. 

the low end of the pulse. ( let it be 2V) thats controlled by a resistor, can we place a pot in there? will it adjust correctly?

Not sure I know what you are referring to Russ.  Are you talking about the base frequency when out of lock?

I suppose you could put some adjustment in there.  Right now it's a fixed 82K resistor that sets the oscillation pretty close to 1kHz.  Seems like I thought about adding a pot for this, but when I tested it I discovered the capacitor is really what sets the bottom of the range.  There is some adjustment there with a resistor but it's rather arbitrary, not absolute like you are probably thinking.

The reason for this resistor being there at all is so the VCO is always running.  That way you always have some sort of signal.  You need some kind of signal in order to get any feedback.  Once you get feedback, the PLL should start converging on any resonance it is able to pick up.  This process of convergence is much like Stan's scanning method, only many times faster.

I can tell you this much for certain.  If we get a proper set of coils and fuel cell to work, it will be simple to determine the normal operating conditions and modify this driver board to stay within those operating condition.  When that's complete, the driver will be almost entirely plug-n-play.  Turn it on and it will work, every time unless something in the VIC or cell is broke or knocked way out of adjustment.  And if that isn't quite possible, then it's time to add in an embedded processor to immediately tune all the pots and keep/get things functioning.  This 5.0 board is mostly a step in that direction.  Version 10.0 may well be the one everybody wants, because it will get the cell working and if it can't, it will tell you why, what you need to fix.

no no no, lol 

i was talking about the "DC bias" so the " low' of the pulse. 

not the frequency. 

~Russ

ne last note about this 5.0 board.

My biggest fear of this board being a failure is in regards to the input/output frequency ratio.  I simply do not know if they frequency we are sending to the VIC should be a multiple or fraction of the frequency we see coming back via the feedback.  If I had certainty some ratio exists, I would have added some ripple counters front and back of the PLL to allow for this.  My hunch is there may be such a ratio, but I don't know what it is at this point.  Once we determine if there is one and it has a fixed value, version 6.0 can incorporate the circuitry to implement it.

It's also possible the correct method isn't to implement a frequency ratio.  It could be that we actually want the PLL to constantly overshoot/undershoot, continually hunting for lock.  I just can't say at this point.  I do know the more we experiment, the more variables we may find, but at the same time, the more variables we may solve.  As long as we don't run out of time, resources or imagination, the solution will become apparent.

And if that isn't quite possible, then it's time to add in an embedded processor to immediately tune all the pots and keep/get things functioning.  This 5.0 board is mostly a step in that direction.  Version 10.0 may well be the one everybody wants, because it will get the cell working and if it can't, it will tell you why, what you need to fix.

That's the engineering approach.

 

==================================\\

Matt
Thank for the video.
If we gate the PLL , when the gate time finish , what is the frequency from PLL to cell driver when PLL is ON again?

 

======================================================

 

Matt
Thank for the video.
If we gate the PLL , when the gate time finish , what is the frequency from PLL to cell driver when PLL is ON again?

a % of last frequency would be good to know. the longer the gating the more derivation will be. time for adjustment will depend on bit bang capacitor.

 

 

Bom bill of materials v5 

 

Here's the spreadsheet as you would send to Mouser.  You may want to remove the blank lines that separate the component types.

 

If we gate the PLL , when the gate time finish , what is the frequency from PLL to cell driver when PLL is ON again?

Keep in mind the VCO never stops running.  All the gate signal does is blank the output going to the driver transistors.  During this time the PLL may begin to drift (towards baseline) if no feedback is seen from the core.  If feedback is still present (the core is ringing), then the PLL will remain locked on frequency.With no feedback the amount if drift is determined by how long the feedback is suppressed.  Long intervals will cause the VCO to reset all the way back to the base frequency of 1kHz.  Short intervals will allow the VCO to drift somewhere in between the current running frequency and the base frequency.  The low-pass filter network connected to the PLL determines how responsive this drift is.

 

Quote from Gunther Rattay on March 10th, 09:23 AM

a % of last frequency would be good to know. the longer the gating the more derivation will be. time for adjustment will depend on bit bang capacitor.

You could take the Application Notes PDF for the 7046 and run the numbers to get a good estimate.  The components used on this board seem to be a reasonable starting point.  I suspect once we have a cell running and we know the center frequency, all the components could be adjusted slightly around this frequency.

=============================

 

 Though I may be in error according to the logic diagram.

It's hard to tell if the inhibit pin is actually stopping the VCO or not.  If it actually stops the VCO, then when the inhibit signal is lifted, the VCO "appears" to pick up at the exact point where it was stopped.  It's possible though the VCO instead begins a new cycle.  This would likely create some jitter in the output.

What I do know is with the additional logic around the gating and inhibit, the pulses stream presented to the driver transistors is always 50% duty cycle.  There are no chopped or partial pulses when the inhibit pin is activated or when it is restored to normal running.

=============================

 

 

Matt
Can you look on this:

Can you look on this:

In that logic diagram is sure looks like the inhibit stops the flip-flop.  So I would have to say when the inhibit is deactivated, the VCO starts a clean new cycle which may not be in-phase with the VCO output prior to the inhibit going active.  That would definitely create some jitter.

Question is:  Is that jitter harmful to the overall function?  Or more important, is it actually necessary, meaning the VIC needs this jitter to do what it does?  If it does, then the gating becomes rather critical to the overall operation.  Small changes in the delay and duration of the gating could make a huge difference in the behavior of the VIC.

=========================================

Question is:  Is that jitter harmful to the overall function?  Or more important, is it actually necessary, meaning the VIC needs this jitter to do what it does?

By how much jitter (or latency or delay) does it become harmful?: 20 milliseconds, 100 milliseconds, 1 second? Is it harmful? Can it self-correct?Limits are defined. If there is high frequency jitter, in an event that it is determined harmful, you would need a low-pass filter there to define a limit.

Quote from Matt Watts on March 11th, 03:40 PM

If it does, then the gating becomes rather critical to the overall operation.  Small changes in the delay and duration of the gating could make a huge difference in the behavior of the VIC.

What is the intended "behavior"?

You can hold a _stable_ PLL lock on a main carrier frequency, like a modern radio does, and still have jitter. If a limit is defined, "harmful" jitter would be mitigated.

 

==================================

A few cycles of jitter is nothing.

Jitter as long as 1 or 10 Hz is concerning. As well as 100 kHz of jitter.

A limit, or bandwidth, is defined.

===========================

 

Matt
When you gate the PLL can you zoom-in on the o-scope a few first cycles after gating is disabled , please?

============================

The PLL should recover after an inhibit. I'm not sure what its behavior is after a few cycles looks like.

=========================

When you gate the PLL can you zoom-in on the o-scope a few first cycles after gating is disabled , please?

The gate logic that is preventing partial pulses is working properly.  Really hard to tell about jitter unless you are accurately tracking the phase angle.

Here's a couple of scope shots.  The first one would indicate to me the VCO is resetting; the second one ...?   Can't say.

This is running with actual core feedback, so it's a little dicey.

It certainly would be possible to re-arrange the logic a little to prevent the VCO from halting and restarting.  Whether this would be a worthwhile endeavor is hard to say.

===============================

 

 

 

The top trace is feedback from the core? Frequency top v. bottom trace?

 

=========================================

Matt
Where was connected the probe of o-scope at?
Thank

=========================================

Directly across VIC primary.  Signal is much cleaner upstream of driver transistors.

================================

The top trace is feedback from the core? Frequency top v. bottom trace?

Just a snapshot zoomed, centered on the gating.  Looking at two consecutive gate signals.

 

===========================================================================

 

Matt
Can CD4098 replace CD74HCT221 for +12V operation? For gate generator? Here is PDF on Part 
Thank

=======================================================================

It can be, but I caution using a retriggerable monostable multivibrator.  I have many SN74HCT123A chips and found out the hard way what their limitation is.

============================================================================

 

It can be, but I caution using a retriggerable monostable multivibrator.  I have many SN74HCT123A chips and found out the hard way what their limitation is.

The original VIC circuit has a 74122 IC as a monostable multivibrator, same as the 74123, to adjust the gate.

It would be helpful to know what the limitation is, and propose a better solution.

=======================================================================

 

It would be helpful to know what the limitation is, and propose a better solution.

The difference being retriggerable versus non-retriggerable.  The non-retriggerable variant I find to be more useful for deterministic pulse generation because it delays a predictable amount of time regardless of incoming trigger signals--only the first trigger matters. 

 

Granted in a looped dual configuration like used here in this driver board, either method works fine since you are guaranteed to only get one trigger.  But in other applications, you may not have this guarantee, so the pulse width or pulse delay may get extended when the chip gets multiple triggers that fire before the time delay has expired.  When you see this on the scope for the first time, you'll question whether your duration time is working as you have set it.  The answer is yes, it is, but is now non-deterministic because you have multiple triggers.Bottom line:

 

  • Retriggerable -- uses the last trigger seen; looks at every subsequent trigger as a restart until the cycle is able to complete.

  • Non-retriggerable -- uses the first trigger seen; ignores any triggers after this until the cycle completes.

Depends on what you want to do.  In my experience the non-retriggerable one-shot is more useful overall.

 

============================================

Matt
What is direct replacement for cd74hct221 from CD 4000 series , for 12V supply operation?
Thank Matt

 

============================================

I'm not convinced there is a direct replacement.
This is probably your best option:  http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd14538b.pdf

hard copy back up here 

 

======================================

 

 

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